Drifting wrote:Sorry, but there are 15 Apostles in the Mormon Church. And if you read the Book of Mormon at the part where Christ appears to the Nephites you will read about him calling 12 Apostles in America whilst He still had 12 Apostles walking around the Middle East. 12 + 12 = 24....
That twenty four rings a bell.
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Albion, I glad that we finally agree that the foundation of the church prophets and apostles. However, there is something that puzzles me. Peter prophesied of the restitution of ALL things, which, of course, would include the church with it's foundation of living prophets and apostles, baptism by immersion, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, animal sacrifices, etc., etc., etc., or else it would not be truly a restitution of all things. The LDS has this foundation for it's church, along with Christ as the chief corner stone. So, I am puzzled as to the fact that you agree with the foundation, but do not belong to a church which has that foundation, not to mention all of the other things restored?
Drifting wrote:Sorry, but there are 15 Apostles in the Mormon Church. And if you read the Book of Mormon at the part where Christ appears to the Nephites you will read about him calling 12 Apostles in America whilst He still had 12 Apostles walking around the Middle East. 12 + 12 = 24....
That twenty four rings a bell.
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Not that I believe you'll see the relevance, but 12 tribes of Israel plus 12 Apostles = 24.
See also Rev 21:12-14
and
Eph 2:19-22
Apostles and prophets = the twelve and the Old Testament prophets, with Jesus as the capstone. There it is, described as built, complete and growing. Twelve Apostles, who are the foundation of Christ's Church. This foundation, comprised of men who Jesus hand picked, who followed Him, lived with Him, ate with Him, knew Him. Mormons act like it crumbled, somehow, and had to be built all over again.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
gdemetz wrote:Hello drifting? Have you not read in the scriptures where God states not to counsel Him? That is why Christ had no counselors. That changed later.
Can you point to where it changed? Top tip: don't say immediately after He died because that is when he called the additional 12 in America. Note it was 12, not 12 with an additional 3.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
madeleine wrote: Not that I believe you'll see the relevance, but 12 tribes of Israel plus 12 Apostles = 24.
But who are the twenty four elders? Surely not the twelve sons of Jacob. Maybe Joseph but not the others. So where are the other twelve?
The vision is that of heaven, the Kingdom of God, and a description of heavenly worship. Gathered around the throne of God are God's People, crowned. (2 Tim 4:8) Symbolically represented by the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve Apostles.
As a continued example of the symbolism, there are the are four creatures (verse 7); a lion, calf, human and eagle. These represent what is strongest, noblest, wisest and swiftest in creation. These are given the six wings of the seraphim (symbolically representing angels).
All of creation are worshipping God (verses 8-11).
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
gdemetz wrote:Hello drifting? Have you not read in the scriptures where God states not to counsel Him? That is why Christ had no counselors. That changed later.
Can you point to where it changed? Top tip: don't say immediately after He died because that is when he called the additional 12 in America. Note it was 12, not 12 with an additional 3.
Bump for gdemetz.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Albion, you and Corpse (?) are both incorrect. The Bible states that "all the sons" of God shouted for joy when the foundations of the earth were being laid! The Bible also states that Heavenly Father is the Father of our spirits and also states that we are His "offspring." The Bible also states that Christ is the firstborn of all those spirits!
gdemetz, I am not sure just what your last post is in answer to...I am equally puzzled by "Corpse".
I think Mormons have a different interpretation of the word "church" . I think Mormons see it as an institution, an organization. The original Greek word simply means the "body of believers" or more properly "the called out ones". I think, too, that if you accept Smith's premise of a total collapse of Christ's church, a falling away of all believers, then it is easy for him to sell you on the idea that what he suggests is the right replacement or "restoration" in Mormon terms. Of course, Chrstianity and scholars reject the idea of a total apostasy as claimed by Smith. It is preposterous in the extreme to even contemplate that God would spend so much time and effort leading up to the pinnacle point of Christ's appearing and atonement only to have it all collapse in a few short years. Jesuis said that where to or three are gathered in my name there I am also....all it took for his church to survive was that one or two and of course, the body of believers has survived to this day. I know it is hard for you to accept, but one of the great lies of Mormonism is the lie of a total apostasy. As I said before, I agree that various churches in the early days were beset by apostasy, just as the Mormon Church is today if we are to believe Marlin Jensen (members leaving in droves, I think he said) but it is a gross assumption to conclude by this a total apostasy of Christ's church...just as it would be to assume by Jensen's admission that the Mormon Church is on the point of total collapse
But wait, you say...where are your prophets and apostles? Well, the Law and the Prophets were fulfilled in Christ...their purpose done in the very appearance of Christ who culminated and proclaims all that they said in his very self. Please see my other post on the transfiguration. I believe apostles, real apostles who had a personal eye-witness experience with Jesus, are indeed the foundation of the Church, Jesus being the chief cornerstone. Their witness has not gone away...it is still there as a foundation...just as the founding fathers of the US are still there as a foundation.....just as the foundation of the Mormon Church office building in SLC is still there out of sight holding up the entire building.