DAN VOGEL DISCUSSES THE SPALDING/RIGDON THEORY

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_Dan Vogel
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Post by _Dan Vogel »

marg wrote:
Dan Vogel wrote:
Now do the same thing with Dale's underlines, and I think you will get the point I was making. Dale's underlines are not one common phrase either, but are several overlapping phrases. Compare my breakdown of Dale's underlines with my breakdown of my underlines.


Well just looking at his first line on this link http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/BookSol0.htm he breaks up " And now...it...came..to pass...that the sons of" , whereas you combined "And it came to pass" as if this was a common word string to both texts. I assumed from that first example, that Dale only underlined words strings common to both ...whereas you don't appear to be doing the same. Can you give me one word string he illustrates as common which is not common to both Book of Mormon and O MS?


You don't seem to understand that Dale used one underline to incorporate two or three phrases that together were not common to both sources. Note the following:--

that they did = not found; "that they/they did"

which were slain; = not found; "which were/were slain"

over them to guard them = not found; "over them/to guard them"

they should perform their labors. = not found; "they should/perform their/their labor"

command of the city and gave it = not found; "command of the/of the city and/and gave/gave it"

man who had been = not found; "men who/who had been"

in the more =not found; "in the/the more"

part of all his = not found; "part of/of all his"

in each other's = not found; "in each/each other's"

beloved by all the people of = not found; "beloved by/by all/all the/the people of"

that they should commence = not found; "that they should/should commence"

about the land, = not found; "about the/the land"

or the city = not found; "or the/the city"

In all these examples, Dale used one continuous underline, although they are not common to both sources. His method, as it seemed to me, was to connect a several word-string into one word-string if they overlapped without a break. However, he did breakup "And it came to pass" apparently because it didn't overlap in Spalding's MS.

And it = ubiquitous
came [to] = found
to pass = found

But it did overlap in Cooper's 1826 Last of the Mohicans :--

And it came = 24
came [to] = 2, 3, 12, 15, 20, 21 29, 30, 32
to pass = 5, 8, 13, 14, 17, 19, 21, 25, 26

Dale can clarify his intentions, but that is why I decided to underline "And it came to pass."
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_Uncle Dale
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Post by _Uncle Dale »

Dan Vogel wrote:Dale,

DID OLIVER COWDERY DELIVER THE SPALDING-RIGDON MS TO JOSEPH SMITH IN HARMONY?

This seems to be a necessary part of the Spalding theory.



Well, it was not part of the original authorship claims, as they were first published in Howe's book in 1834.
However, the subsequent allegations put forth by Orsamus Turner, the conclusions of D. H. Bays, and the
speculation advanced in Vanick's book, all bring Oliver into the limelight.

Correct me if I am wrong, but even you, Dan, postulate a sort of minor conspiracy theory, in which Oliver
at the very least kept back some of the details regarding exactly what the "gift and power of God" may have
entailed, and may have stretched the truth in his own testimony regarding the plates, John the Baptist, and
Peter, James & John ---

I do not think that Oliver "delivering" a Spalding-Rigdon MS to Joseph is a necessary part of the "theory," as
old southern Geauga Co. sources put Smith himself in the Auburn-Bainbridge area when Rigdon lived there,
and furthermore, the school-teacher George Wilber reportedly saw Rigdon leave the area in company with
Smith. According to the testimony of Mr. Jefferies, in 1844 Rigdon himself admitted to having met with Smith
in Ohio on Sundays (the days Rigdon would have gone over to neighboring Auburn to preach) to construct
the Book of Mormon. Lastly, the nursemaid for Rigdon's kids in 1826-27, reportedly recalled there being one
or two other visionaries, or spirit-writers, in Rigdon's neighborhood, all of whom were in some way said to
be involved in producing the text.

If this is the sub-theory we are now to devote our time in researching, I think the best that might be said for
Oliver, was that he might have been one of those one or two other visionaries working on the text in 1826 in
the Auburn-Bainbridge, area --- more specifically at the Stafford family homestead, or an adjacent residence,
on the "Kirtland" tract of Auburn township.

How else could Joseph Smith replace the lost 116 pages without Rigdon getting a replacement text to him in
some manner?



I don't know -- you tell me. One idea I've been kicking around, is that the replacement text came mostly out
of the remaining "Nephite Record" still in Smith's possession at that time. The story of the Mulekite migration
from Jerusalem to Zarahemla is missing from the Book of Mormon as we now have it. I have been wondering
if Smith and Cowdery might not have moved that Mulekite account forward, re-writing its character names and
a few of the most memorable events, so as to roughly match what Martin Harris would have been able to
recall as having been the migration and colonization story told in the "Book of Lehi."

I am in no way convinced that this is what happened -- but it is a notion well on its way to becoming a hypothesis
in my studies. And, if that is what did happen, then a huge input from Rigdon would have been unnecessary.
If Rigdon, Smith and Cowdery were the three Book of Mormon compilers recalled by Rigdon's maid, as having
worked on the text in Geauga Co., Ohio in 1826, then perhaps Rigdon considered the other two "prophets and
seers" as capable as himself, to fathom the Nephite past. On the other hand, Whitsitt and Braden claim to see
Rigdonite contributions in 2nd Nephi and Moroni -- so perhaps some additional text was solicited from Sidney.


In this way, the theory become ever more cumbersome as it must multiply ad hoc assumptions to stay
afloat. However, like Pratt's bringing the Book of Mormon to Rigdon, Cowdery meets Joseph Smith through a series of fortuitous
events. It seems to me that Spalding advocates must deal with several key issues:--

1. If Cowdery's mission was to deliver Rigdon's revised MS to Joseph Smith, then why did he stop in Manchester and
teach school during the winter of 1828-29?



You are building up a straw-man to kick down later, Dan. Address this sort of stuff to Art Vanick.

2. Cowdery's meeting the Smiths and learning about the plates was by chance encounter with the Smiths in his capacity as a teacher in the district where Hyrum was the superintendent and a boarder at their home.

3. If Cowdery has the MS and already knows about the plates, why does he pursue Joseph Smith Sr. to tell him about them?

4. If Cowdery was an accomplice, why does he want to try his hand at translation?



What did "translation" really entail? Assume for just ten seconds that Oliver really was one of those prophetic
writers cooperating to compile the text, in Aubirn or Bainbrode, Ohio, in 1826 ---- If we can imagine that as
even a dim possibility, then his further involvement in the "translation" would not present any great problems,
(for me at least). Give me a second and a third early source, regarding Oliver's attempts in that direction,
and I can discuss the probable history. Single-source reconstructions of the past are problematic.

5. If Cowdery had just delivered Rigdon's MS, why does the content of Mosiah seem to reflect aspects of Smith and Cowdery's relationship?

These are some of the issues to which Dale attempted to responded. But note that--as with Pratt--Dale's thesis interprets or dismisses the source, rather than the other way round....

Lucy's history is not flawless, but it is generally accurate. She worked closely with Martha Coray on the MS, and is essentially a firsthand account. So I would be cautious about brushing it off as "not reliable history." Even if some of the details are inaccurate, she is not mistaken about Cowdery teaching school in Manchester and living with them in their home.



I assume that you took at least a few historical theory and writing clases in University, Dan. What did your profs
tell you about the use of single sources? I can find a single-source account of the Japanese invasion of China,
given as the biography of an imperial soldier who quotes from his own preserved diary, that there was
no massacre at Nanking, and that the Chinese people greeted the Emperor's troops as liberators.

Perhaps THAT is really what Pvt. Tagaushi saw and experienced --- or what he recalled seeing and experiencing,
but in a history dedicated to the honored memory of Admiral Tojo, I say we'd be fools to rely upon such a
single source, as an authentic and objective report of the Japanese past.

Dan, you seem overly eager to accept and rely upon Mormon sources. No doubt you were taught this stuff in
Primary, and it has stuck to your psyche all through the years. I come from an entirely different Latter Day
Saint tradition ---- one in which many scholars and leaders automatically distrust any and all of the old sources.
A historian such as Flanders or Launius will make use of those single sources, when nothing else is available,
but with far, far more skepticism than you seem to give them.

I guess I''ll just have to accept that predisposition of yours as an unalterable fact, and will have to "plow around"
what I see as a big old stump in your field of inquiry.

Cowdery's teaching school in Manchester was remembered by Ezra Pierce (EMD 2:84), John H. Gilbert (86, 546), Lorenzo Saunders (134, 213), and Oliver's step-sister, Lucy P. Young (397). John Stafford said Cowdery taught school in his house (87, 122-23). Sylvia Walker said: "I attended school to Oliver Cowdery with Carlos, Sam Bill, Catherine, and Lucy Smith" (190). Christopher Stafford said: "Oliver Cowdery taught school one winter" (194)....

Lucy did know Lyman, so perhaps she knew things that made his employment as a teacher less perplexing. At most, you have unanswered questions. I think you exaggerate when you say he would have had to leave his family since Arcadia was the next township over from Palmyra. From the school house on the Canandaigua Road to Newark was less than ten miles, which on horseback would have been no problem.



Ever walk that route, Dan? Ever take a horse across the icy Erie Canal on stormy January days, and ride him
over to Manchester? All for a dollar a week and room & board with a local family? I can see no reason why
Lyman could have done such a thing, when he could have made a better wage sitting in the comfort of his own
house, drafting up legal documents or engaging in other productive work, which would not have added to his
horse's oats bill, nor to his own frostbitten fingers.

No -- common sense says that Lyman was probably not selected as a Manchester teacher. On the other hand,
I can picture a soliciatation being passed around the area (perhaps via blue lodge meetings) whereby Lyman
might have vouched for his younger brother. I say Mother Smith probably has her wires crossed on this stuff.

So, despite your skepticism regarding the exact nature of Lyman's involvment, you seem to understand that Oliver's introduction to the Manchester school district was a fortuitous event, which poses a problem for you theory.



Hyrum Smith recommends Oliver and he is hired -- and then runs out on the job and does not teach school
again until 1839, if I recall correctly. If Oliver had already been teaching in the Waterloo/Fayette area, then
he had the credentials to teach at Manchester, with or without Hyrum's help in getting him the job. How does
any of this prove that Oliver did not already know his Smith cousins? Read Turner again and give me answers.

... The first thing to notice is that Saunders claims Cowdery wrote for Joseph Smith in Manchester, rather than in
Harmony and Fayette. Saunders' memory seems a little fuzzy after about 50 years. So, he needs some
help. Most likely Saunders observed Cowdery preparing the printer's MS at the Smith's home in Manchester.



In Miner's Cave, perhaps? Yeah, Saunders is another single source. Let's dig into the old school district
records of Ontario Co., and see if we can find better sources.

... You confuse me.



That's not intential, believe me. I am not writing as a dedicated advocate of published conclusions, as you are.
I weigh evidence as best I can and ask for other's ideas as well. Do next expect consistency from me until
after I have published. When the Rigdon book comes out, THEN you can hold me to what I've said in print.

You begin by doubting OC's attempt at translation.



A good way to begin any consideration of Mormonism's past -- I'd say. But I do not doubt that there was a
story put forward at an early date, by Smith and Cowdery, regarding Oliver's "translation" attempt. Without
some additional information, that is as far back as I can reliably go. After that, there are a number of different
possibilities as to what really happened, to give rise to that report. I have not yet closed off my mind to most
of those mutually exclusive possibilities. You tell me exactly what happened, and we will both know.

Then you speculate about his possibly adding material to the Book of Mormon. You even try to support this theory by reference to Cowdery's authoring the section on marriage in the 1835 D&C, which wasn't a revelation any more than were the 1834 minutes of the organization of the Kirtland High Council (D&C 102; 1835 Sec. V), or Lectures on Faith. Nor is his 1829 revelation an indication that he was a conspirator any more than Hiram Page's revelations. D&C 9 implies that he tried and failed--"Now, if you had known this you could have translated."


Cowdery's writings (see Faulring on the Articles of the Church section) made it into the holy writ of the Latter Day
Saints' "standard works." When the assembled quorums accepted the D&C as the mind and will of the Lord in
1835, that put God's seal of approval on the text -- whether any particular section came via revelation, inspiration
or just a clear head, upheld by the abiding presence of the Holy Ghost.

You tell me which of Cowdery's words to eliminate from the 1835 D&C, as being a non-contribution to the text,
and I will be happy to cross them out in my family heirloom volume in red ink.

Dale wrote:As for Cowdery serving as a middle-man between Rigdon and Smith, that is pure speculation. It may be
true, but until some sort of reliable evidence surfaces in support of that idea, it cannot be relied upon as
history.



Well, we agree about something. But this raises the question--How did Rigdon get his replacement text to Joseph Smith,
either in Harmony or Fayette?



Good question -- ask Art Vanick.


... Well, if that was how the Book of Mormon was put together, then it wouldn't have been very good either. If Rigdon was needed because Joseph Smith's talents weren't up to the task, then his contributions would stand out like a college
freshman trying to plagiarize parts of a term paper.



See my earlier comments, about the possibility of the three men having worked together on the text from an
early date forward. I do not count the Book of Mormon as being "very good" in any part. It is about as "good" as a repair
manual for a Chevy Vega, written by committee and published on contract by the "National Enquirer" press.

I'm not feeling well, Dan --- I'll try pick up the loose ends of this thread later, when my stamina is better.

UD
_Dan Vogel
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Post by _Dan Vogel »

Uncle Dale wrote:
Dan Vogel wrote:
Dale might try reversing his method by trying to find the Book of Mormon in Spalding.

I think we know what would happen.

There would not only be a fairly even distribution, but much of Spalding's distinctive vocabulary
and phrasing would remain untouched, while the Book of Mormon's (like "and it came to pass" and "the more part")
would not be represented.



Isn't that exactly what I have done?

And what I have said? ----> That the Spaldingish sections of the Book of Mormon are intermixed with biblical vocabulary
and biblical grammatic structures -- and that the themes, phraseology and vocabulary of those same
Spaldingish sections appear in an uneven distribution, without their biblical literary wrappings, in the
Oberlin manuscript?

For example -- I might say today, "Dan has read this message and has disagreed with its writer."
But if I were to place that same sentence into a quasi-scriptural pseudo-history, I might say instead:


"But behold! Dan did read the epistle sent unto him by that wicked man; yea and he hath read the more part
of the words of that evil and designing man; and in his anger he hath waxed most terribly in righteousness
wrath; and it shall come to pass that Dan, even he which hath read those evil words, shall march forth at the
head of his armies unto the isles of the sea; yea and even unto that great and wicked city of Hilo...."


Had there been "a fairly even distribution" of Book of Mormon language reflected in Spalding's writings, but
"Spalding's distinctive vocabulary and phrasing... remain untouched," then my thesis committee would have
stopped me in my studies, after I had spent three solid weeks plotting George Reynolds' Book of Mormon concordance
snippets within the Oberlin manuscript ------ it was the UNEVEN distribution, as indicated on my black & white
Spalding chart, which convinced the professors that I should continue with my research.

Dale


In other words, you are trying to imagine how Spalding would have written in biblical style without having a sample. That seems problematic to me. Whereas we do have a sample of Joseph Smith's non-BOM biblical style writings that DO compare favorably to the Book of Mormon.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_Dan Vogel
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Post by _Dan Vogel »

Art,

We didn't think the textual analysis method was the best way to go either, so we went at things from a purely historical point of view. Either Rigdon, Cowdery, and Smith did what we claim they did or they didn't. Either they were where we say they were or weren't. We deliberately left grammatical considerations, word-strings, and other various literary trappings out so that we could concentrate on the people we felt were responsible for the bringing forth of what is now known as the Book of Mormon.


I think your decision was the right one, although I think readers in general can be taken in by "fancy charts" and gimmicks. I have nearly read the entire CD that Dale gave me. I meant to respond to your previous post on why you think there were at least two Spalding MSS, but in reading your essay as well as much of Dale's on-line commentary, it has become clear to me that there are several overlapping issues that need addressing. So, I will soon be laying them out for discussion. Generally, I think you and your co-authors needed to be more critical of the Spalding witnesses, whose memories seemed to improve in order to accommodate new Spalding revelations and new questions posed to them by eager researchers. While you seem overly suspicious of Mormon sources--allowing your imaginations to run wild at times with speculations of evil designs--you are blind to all the possible motivations of all the ministers coming forward with each additional piece of the Spalding puzzle. Do you really think Spalding himself suspected Rigdon of stealing his MS?

From what has been made abundantly, and I might add by Mr. Metcalfe, tersely and at the point of insult, clear, is that if one were to put 20 wordprint analysts to work on the Book of Mormon and Spalding's known works, one would more than likely come up with 20 different interpretations.


Agreed.

By the way, the Roper response is nearly complete, and it will be very interesting to see Mr. Roper's reaction to it.


Where will this appear?

One other thing: in the future when asking people not to engage in ad hominem attacks, please include Mr. Metcalfe in your admonition, as several of his remarks to Dale were simply uncalled-for.


I think you just did. But let me point out that being rude is not ad hominem. Ad hominem is when an argument is ignored and the person is attacked instead.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
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_Uncle Dale
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Post by _Uncle Dale »

Dan Vogel wrote:In other words, you are trying to imagine how Spalding would have written in biblical style without having a sample. That seems problematic to me. Whereas we do have a sample of Joseph Smith's non-BOM biblical style writings that DO compare favorably to the Book of Mormon.



The witnesses say that The Book of Mormon reminded them of Spalding's fiction. If that were really the case, we ought to
be able to find in the Book of Mormon at least an occasional section of text resembling what we know of Spalding's writings.
Since several early witnesses (as well as his would-be 1812 Pittsburgh publisher) said that his magus opus was
rendered in biblical style, we should expect any correlating Book of Mormon sections to have some added stylistic elements
typical of the KJV English Bible, but not typical of Spalding's extant, non-biblical fiction.

So.....

Dan, when you have a little free time, you might take a look at the
compilation of Spalding/Book of Mormon word-strings I've placed on-line here:
http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/BookSol4b.htm

As time and energy permit, I will add all of Ted Chandler's comments,
as well as insert what I have on hand of Vernal Holley's phraseology
parallels for the silly battle stories of Alma XX-Helaman I ----
These will supplement and reinforce my own tabulated listings for my
"The Secular and the Sacred" 1982 MHA paper.

Here is one part of Vern's tabulation that I already had transferred into html:
http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/Bo ... ng-exploit

Let's look at a couple of short extracts from the Oberln MS pericope
which I've called "A Daring Kentuck Exploit" (found on MS text pp. 154-155)

these young heroes had accomplished their plan in getting into
the camp of the Sciotans unperceived. They found them lying
in a profound sleep, for the fatigues of the day and the revels
of the night had brought weariness upon them


How might such "generic" 19th century mock epic prose be tranferred
into "King James" English? Here are some possibilities:

in the morning... all their task-masters were in a profound sleep

sleep had overpowered them because of... fatigue... by the labors... of the day

while the Lamanites were in a deep sleep... Moroni had armed... in a profound silence

Or, another example:

Kelsock turned instantly, and running furiously back cried:
"Spare, O spare the youth! He is innocent... Scarce had
he spoken and Haloon plunged his sword into the heart of Hamko.
The young hero fell and, with a groan, expired.


How might this florid stuff be recast and tranferred
into "King James" English? Here are some possibilities:

Alma... he cried, saying, O Lord, have mercy and spare my life

Nephi saith... O... Go... he shall declare... he is innocent

Nephites did... slay them with much slaughter... slain of the Amlicites

he began to plead... spare his life. But Ammon raised his sword... I will smite thee

the servant... did stab Kishkumen even to the heart

Teancum stole privily into the tent of the king, and put a javelin to his heart

the servant... did stab Kishkumen... that he fell dead without a groan


Both Wayne Ham and Lester Bush had ample opportunity to read, review and
ponder the conclusions I presented in my 1980 and 1982 papers on this stuff.
http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/SRPpap10.htm
http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/SRPpap11.htm

I cannot sort out their respective comments after all of these years, but between
the two of them, they agreed that Solomon Spalding could not possibly have
re-cast his mock epic fiction into BoM-style narrative, because that would entail
his having been the writer of the entire Nephite Record -- which was impossible.
And, since the earliest Spalding witnesses speak of a story about the lost tribes
of Israel, it is certain that they never read more than a page or two of the
published Mormon book (which says practically nothing at all about those ten tribes)
---- the testimony of the eight Conneaut witnesses is therefore a mixture of the
contemporary lost tribes=Indians speculation, coupled with their having heard
from Mormon missionaries that Joseph Smith found his buried ancient record
atop a hill, under a stone cover, which he removed by prying it up with a lever,
and then retrieved the ancient records, meant to come forth in the times after
the European Gentile colonization of North America, and to be translated into
English for the benefit of those latter day people.

Since this is essentially the story told in the opening couple of pages of the
Oberlin MS ----> http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/SRPpap04.htm

Bush and Ham concluded that I could not make use of my tabulated
literary parallels and shared phraseology, in order to establish a basis for
a theory of Spalding authorship of the last 1/3 of Alma. Not only was such a
theory invalid, but it could not be formulated in the first place, based upon
their learned deductive reasoning.

So Dan, there you have it --- The witnesses never read the Book of Mormon and because
they did not do that, the Spalding authorship claims should have never been
published in the first place. And, since those claims are thus so easily refuted,
all shared thematic and literary elements in the two texts are purely coincidental.

Uncle Dale
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Post by _Uncle Dale »

[[remainder of my earlier reply, posted tardy]]

Dan Vogel wrote:But your Spalding witnesses said the historical parts were just as Spalding had written.
It is a historical section of the Book of Mormon we are talking about.



Let us take the old CD I sent you, as an example. You can be a witness and say what you read on that
piece of Vanick media communication. In some cases what you report will accurately match what is in
Art's recently published book, and in some cases what you say will not match. But let's make the analogy
a bit better than that. Let's say that it was 20 years ago that you last consulted the CD, and only then by
having a friend read to you a few of the chapters. In the meanwhile you've lost the CD and the authors
have disappeared, and some person you've never before heard of publishes Art's manuscript. How closely
will your memories of the CD's contents match that new guy's book?

Let's say that your recollection matches so well, that you feel justified in accusing the fellow of plagiarizing
Art's CD. You make your views known -- he objects and says "no way;" and I interview some additional
folks who say Art re-wrote his manuscript, re-arranged the chapters, left much out, and included a bunch
of stuff not on the CD.

What can we say about your supposed testimony at that point? Probably you'd say that you did your best to
recall what you thought was contained on the CD, but that perhaps -- yes -- the new book did not match the
CD as well as you had initially stated,

That's what I think happened in the case of the Conneaut witnesses, and a few associated people, like my
ancestral relative, Daniel Tyler and his neighbor Erastus Rudd, and Erastus' brother-in-law, Abner Jackson.
All of those folks gave their memories as best they could, but they were not around to see Spalding's final
story draft, as submitted to the Patterson publishers of Pittsburgh between 1812 and 1816.

By comparing all of these various witnesses' stories (about 20 different memories) we can come up with a
composite description of a rather lengthy "Manuscript Found," written in the biblical style, about ancient
Israelites migrating to the Americas, to become the subsequently exterminated mound-builders.

Anybody who voiced a major part of THAT description, and then said that its historical narrative read exactly
like the Book of Mormon, I discount by at least 50%. Either their memories failed them -- or they were
coached by Hurlbut -- or they fell victim to group-think, after having read other witnesses' accounts, or
something. On the other hand, those witnesses who admitted that what they knew of Spalding's fiction
matched parts of the Book of Mormon, but not its theology, etc., I tend to place more reliance upon them.

And, in fact Dan, there is a spectrum of testimony, ranging from the "Manuscript Found" reading very much
like the Nephite story to its reading like only parts of the Nephite story. The testimony from the Amity area,
where Spalding died, tends to be more complex and less assertive of the two texts matching exactly.

Why immediately set the Rigdon-Spalding MS aside and begin dictating your own text? Doesn't it follow that
if Joseph Smith can dictate this text, as well as the replacement text of 1 Nephi to Words of Mormon, that he doesn't
need Rigdon?



Just like, back in my hiking days, I did not need to follow a path already blazed by people before me. But
I generally did follow those other paths, because it was easier and I knew that they probably avoided running
into dead ends, and eventually reached a useful end-point.

Expand your imagination just a very small amount, and picture Rigdon. Cowdery and Smith as fellow prophets and
seers, bent upon "jump-starting" the anticipated Christian millennium with a "restored" religion a thousand times
better than the apostate churches they see all around them. Imagine at least two of those seers as truely
believing in a Nephite past -- a prior dispensation, largely predictable in its content, since all gospel dispensations
are pretty much the same -- a dispensation, the details of which are determined by study, confirmation of the
Spirit, and visionary perceptions. How would such a trio operate, knowing that if they divulged the full details of
their secretive operations, they would never bring anybody into their carefully planned "restoration."

In such a scenerio, Smith and Cowdery need not be aware of Spalding at all --- and Rigdon has so altered the
the Spalding original narrative, with additions, deletions and corrections, that he looks upon the results as being
more "revelation" than "restatement" of any literary source document which might have fallen into his hands
in past years. In such a situation, Rigdon and Cowdery need not be aware that Smith is no seer at all, but is
instead something of a self-deluded charlatan and copy-cat of successful cult leaders like Jacob Cochran and
Jemmima Wilkinson. Look at any small, closely-knit sect or cult with multiple topmost leaders for analogies.

And how could he do it in a way that flawlessly matches Rigdon's language.



Show me pure Rigdon language and pure Smith language in the text, and we can talk. If the text is a mixture,
then maybe it is something like the "family letter" that my wife and I write and send to several friends at the
end of each year -- in which her sentences and thoughts intertwine with my own; and in which only an expert
word-print analyst could separate the sentences distinctly hers from those distinctly mine.

If you see the Book of Mormon as a uniform text (save for the identified biblical replications), then of course you will be
talking about "flawless" textual matches. Did you ever take any higher biblical criticism courses in graduate
school, where you had to deconstruct biblical texts and determine source and redaction patterns? I have.
I am no expert on such literary dis-assembling, but I have heard experts lecture on the process -- I know it
can be done and is done, by certain highly trained "higher criticism" analysts.

If you think Joseph Smith redacted Rigdon's writing, then why have such an unnecessary and massive conspiracy
at all? If Rigdon could do it without Joseph Smith, why would he pick someone with such a bad reputation to bring forth
his book in a folk magical manner? Doesn't make any sense either way.



What if Rigdon really believed Smith was an inspired seer, despite his faults? And what if Smith really believed
in Rigdon's projected "restoration of the ancient order of things," no matter Smith's failings as a prophet?

Right up to the very end of his life, Rigdon was saying that the restored church needed two leaders -- a seer
and a spokesman (a modern Moses and a modern Aaron). Wasn't that the way he started -- in tandum with
Elder Walter Scott, in their founding of the first "Church of Christ" in Pittsburgh, in 1823-24? It may not make
sense --- but Rigdon was looking for the restoration of divine miracles -- and I think he was searching for a
visionary like himself, with whom he could share open visions of Christ, and heaven, and past dispensations,
just as the disciples of the Prophet Jacob Cochran claimed to "see beyond the veil" in Swedenborgian ecstasy.

I haven't summarily dismissed the Spalding theory. I have given what I think are very cogent reasons for
rejecting it.



You say I confuse you, Dan -- but you also confuse me. In saying this, are you not making the same suggestion
that Brent made -- that I throw all of my research into the toilet and admit that not one particle of it has any
value to anybody? If that is your message, how on earth do you expect me to repent and follow after you?

Your better response would be to say that you believe most of my findings to be inconclusive or mis-stated, but
that there may be some peripheral value in somebody conducting these sorts of investigations. After all,
the Spalding-Rigdon claims were a major part of the "anti" reaction to Mormonism for many decades. Somebody
ought to at least compile and document that phenomenon -- if only for archival purposes.

But no --- I see you rejecting what you THINK the theory is, without your being able to salvage even a few
fragments of its many facets -- of its mountain of evidence, much of which does not center upon Spalding or
Rigdon, but rather upon secondary issues of Mormon history supportive of a Mormon conspiracy to really become
the stone in the Book of Daniel, which rolls through the world, crushing all other governments and relgions in
its path, in order to establish the universal and mandatory "Political Kingdom of God" with Smith forever at the
head of the final dispensation, judging both the quick and the dead upon Judgment Day.

The Spalding-Rigdon claims intertwine historically with the non-Mormon reaction to that "Elect of Ephraim," and
"chosen of the Lord" attempt to establish the "one true church" as a world-wide theocracy. To simply throw those
claims into the trash, and ban them from sets of early Mormon document compilations, is to cut a big chunk out
of the Gentile (and apostate) reaction to Mormonism.

Of course, I can't say that all my interpretations of the text are "on the money," but I think the text makes more sense coming from Joseph Smith, than from Rigdon or Spalding. All Spalding advocates can do is point to a few general doctrines that sound like Rigdon's pre-1830 teachings. But Joseph Smith's biography explains all them and more. If Rigdon somehow got a replacement text to Joseph Smith, why is it about a family that is divided over religion, specifically the meaning of the father's dreams? Why is one of those dreams like one of Joseph Sr.'s?


Maybe because the construction of the text was a two-way street ---- with ideas from the "Nephite Record"
impacting directly upon the Smith family, and the experiences of that same Smith family impacting directly
upon the text.

Recall Smith, mounted upon his charger, at the head of the Zion's Camp military expedition of 1834 -- marching
forth to "redeem Zion" like Captain Moroni marching against the ancient enemies of God.

How much of that charade came from Smith's reading of the text? ---- And how much of the text came from
Smith's wanting to record on paper his notions of a prophet-warrior?

You tell me, and we will both know, Dan.

UD
_Dan Vogel
_Emeritus
Posts: 876
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:26 am

Post by _Dan Vogel »

SPALDING THEORY: HOW IT ALL GOT STARTED

After much prodding to get into the discussion, Art responded in a recent post listing reasons for believing there was more than one Spalding MS. He simply quoted sources that said there was more than one, and left to me to analyze them. The fact that some witnesses said Spalding had many writings doesn't prove he had the one writing that matters most--the MS Found. Other witnesses Art quoted cannot be understood apart from the context in which the statements were created.

My method will be to follow the development of the Spalding story as it unfolded, which in turn shaped the testimony. One criticism I have of Cowdrey, Davis, and Vanick's Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon? (page numbers here is to the 2000 CD version) is that it ignores the dangers of interviewers leading the witnesses and witnesses contaminating one another. There is no awareness that the Spalding theory had a life and history of its own that needs careful examination. The witnesses were also caught up in the Spalding phenomenon and were blending memories with interpretations. Cowdrey et al. tend to blend early and late statements as if there was no development in the story, and by doing so they are led to give anachronistic interpretations and false historical reconstructions to those memories.

Cowdrey et al. assume there is a core "true" story that simply needs putting together with clues provided by various witnesses are different times. This would be like apologists who indiscriminately quote from Joseph Smith's 1832 and 1838 accounts of his first vision story as if each story were simply different aspects of the one "true" version that Joseph Smith had experienced, or that he chose to withhold some of the details in 1832 and that the 1838 account is simply a fuller version. That is a dangerous assumption. So my method will be to examine the Spalding story (as a phenomenon) as it unfolded--sort of a textual analysis and running commentary on the major Spalding texts.

In this post and one to follow, I propose to take a closer look at Hurlbut's witnesses. Just how credible are they? Can their more than 20-year-old memories be relied on? Are their memories unimpeachable? Or is there sufficient cause for skepticism and cauution?

The following is intended to outline my reasons for skepticism about Hurlbut's witnesses. Generally, I think the witnesses were sincere in their claims, but that their memories had played tricks on them in a way that is similar to recent studies on false memories that demonstrate that memories can be planted through the power of repeated suggestion (for links, see my previous posts). Combined with obviously over zealous researchers after Hurlbut, mostly from the ministry, and you have the makings of folklore.


August-September 1831
James Gordon Bennett speculated that SR was the true author of the Book of Mormon.

At last some person who joined them spoke of a person in Ohio near Painesville, who had a particular felicity in finding out the spots of ground where money is hid and riches obtained. ... To work the whole money-digging crew went to get some money to pay the expenses of bringing on a man who could dream out the exact and particular spots where money in iron chests was hid under ground. Old Smith returned to his gingerbread factory--young Smith to his financing faculties, and after some time, by hook or by crook, they contrived to scrape together a little "change" sufficient to fetch on the money dreamer from Ohio.

After the lapse of some weeks the expedition was completed, and the famous Ohio man made his appearance among them. This recruit was the most cunning, intelligent, and odd of the whole. He had been a preacher of almost every religion ... His name I believe is Henry Rangdon or Ringdon [Sidney Rigdon], or some such word. About the time that this person appeared among them, a splendid excavation was begun in a long narrow hill, between Manchester and Palmyra. This hill has since been called by some, the Golden Bible Hill. ... In the face of this hill, the money diggers renewed their work with fresh ardour, Ringdon partly uniting with them in their operations.

--James Gordon Bennett, "Mormonism--Religious Fanaticism--Church and State Party," Part I, Morning Courier and Enquirer, 31 August 1831. (EMD 3:286)


Bennett apparently conflated separate stories then circulating in the Palmyra/Manchester area about two individuals. The first, Luman Walters the Magician, probably appeared in the area in the early or mid-1820s. The Palmyra Reflector had published accounts describing Walters as Smith's occult mentor. The second, Sidney Rigdon, came to Fayette, New York, in December 1830. Believing Smith ignorant, Palmyra residents speculated that Rigdon had authored the Book of Mormon, although at the time they had no direct evidence connecting Rigdon with the Smiths prior to the book's publication. It is unclear whether the conflation of the two men originated with Bennett or his sources. Regardless, Bennett's uninformed assertion that Rigdon was digging around the Hill Cumorah with Joseph Smith and the money diggers in the mid-1820s is obviously false, and probably refers to Luman Walters' dealings on Miners' Hill.

In a second article, Bennet continued his speculations:--

It was during this state of public feeling in which the money diggers of Ontario county, by the suggestions of the Ex-Preacher from Ohio, thought of turning their digging concern into a religious plot, and thereby have a better chance of working upon the credulity and ignorance of their associates and the neighborhood. Money and a good living might be got in this way. It was given out that visions had appeared to Joe Smith--that a set of golden plates on which was engraved the "Book of Mormon," enclosed in an iron chest, was deposited somewhere in the hill I have mentioned. People laughed at the first intimation of the story, but the Smiths and Rangdon persisted in its truth. They began also to talk very seriously, to quote scripture, to read the Bible, to be contemplative, and to assume that grave studied character, which so easily imposes on ignorant and superstitious people. ...

There is no doubt but the ex-parson from Ohio is the author of the book which was recently printed and published in Palmyra, and passes for the new Bible. It is full of strange narratives--in the style of the scriptures, and bearing on its face the marks of some ingenuity, and familiar acquaintance with the Bible. ...

--James Gordon Bennett, "Mormon Religion--Clerical Ambition--Western New York--The Mormonites Gone to Ohio," Part II, Morning Courier and Enquirer, 1 September 1831. (EMD 3:288-89)


Bennett's is probably the first published account that attempts to credit Sidney Rigdon with authoring the Book of Mormon. However, Bennett had no evidence, but was speculating to solve an apparent discrepancy between Joseph Smith's lack of education and the Book of Mormon. It's probable that this assertion was based on his belief that Joseph Smith was an ignorant farm boy and a slight acquaintance with the Book of Mormon. At this time, the only evidence he had connecting Smith and Rigdon was the garbled account he offered above. Clearly, better evidence was needed to explain the Book of Mormon.

12-13 February 1832
Orson Hyde preached the Book of Mormon at Conneaut (OH). Nehemiah King, according to Aron Wright, left the meeting claiming Hyde had preached from the writings of Solomon Spalding (see 31 Dec. 1833 statement in Cowdery et al., 73). Thus, discussions about Spalding's writings and the Book of Mormon were circulating for a year before Hurlbut came, allowing one witness to contaminate another.]

April-May 1833
Hurlbut on mission to northeast Ohio and western New York and Pennsylvania.

July-August 1833
Hurlbut returns to lecture in Springfield (PA), Albion (PA), where he meets a Mr. Jackson and learns about Spalding.

ca. August 1833
Hurlbut obtains statements of Solomon Spalding's brother John and wife Martha in Conneautville (PA).

The pertinent part of John Spalding's statement is as follows:--

... The year following [i.e., 1810], I removed to Ohio, and found him engaged in building a forge. I made him a visit in about three years after [1813]; and found that he had failed, and considerably involved in debt. He then told me he had been writing a book, which he intended to have printed, the avails of which he thought would enable him to pay all his debts. The book was entitled the "Manuscript Found," of which he read to me many passages. -- It was a historical romance of the first settlers of America, endeavoring to show that the American Indians are the descendants of the Jews, or the lost tribes. It gave a detailed account of their journey from Jerusalem, by land and sea, till they arrived in America, under the command of NEPHI and LEHI. They afterwards had quarrels and contentions, and separated into two distinct nations, one of which he denominated Nephites and the other Lamanites. Cruel and bloody wars ensued, in which great multitudes were slain. They buried their dead in large heaps, which caused the mounds so common in this country. Their arts, sciences and civilization were brought into view, in order to account for all the curious antiquities, found in various parts of North and South America. I have recently read the Book of Mormon, and to my great surprize I find nearly the same historical matter, names, &c. as they were in my brother's writings. I well remember that he wrote in the old style, and commenced about every sentence with "and it came to pass," or "now it came to pass," the same as in the Book of Mormon, and according to the best of my recollection and belief, it is the same as my brother Solomon wrote, with the exception of the religious matter. -- By what means it has fallen into the hands of Joseph Smith, Jr. I am unable to determine.

--Howe, Mormonism Unvailed 279-80.


Was John Spalding correctly remembering a distinct MS from his brother's Roman story that turned out to be like the Book of Mormon, or was he conflating his memory of Manuscript Story with Book of Mormon? Had his memory been contaminated with his reading of a similar type book--the Book of Mormon? Did the discussion started by Nehemiah King the previous year plant a suggestion and expectation that played upon his memory? These are very real concerns that need to be kept in mind before simply accepting such memories as gospel truth. Certainly the burden to convince us of their testimonies rests with them.

The book was entitled the "Manuscript Found," -- Although the Roman romance is titled "Manuscript Story", it is easy to see how after 20+ years "MS Found" could be attributed to it since it is about a manuscript found.

of which he read to me many passages. -- Apparently he had not read the whole story.

It was a historical romance of the first settlers of America, -- In Book of Mormon, the Lehites are not the first settlers of America, and the first settlers are not ancestors of the Indians. However, anyone using the ten tribe theory would have to conform to the stipulation in 2 Esdras that they “took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt” (13:40-41).

endeavoring to show that the American Indians are the descendants of the Jews, or the lost tribes. -- The popular misconception about the Book of Mormon was that it was about the ten tribes. So it is likely that John Spalding thought he was making a parallel to the Book of Mormon, when he wasn't. Since Solomon's Romans come to an already populated America of natives of two types, it is possible that he told John of his belief that the Indian were descended from the ten tribes and perhaps intended to include that in his "MS Story".

It gave a detailed account of their journey from Jerusalem, by land and sea, till they arrived in America, -- Strange that the ten tribes should come from Jerusalem? Having the Lehites come from Jerusalem later than the ten tribes' dispersion from northern Israel was the Book of Mormon's innovation, which allowed it to be tied to the Old Testament and not the apocrypha. As pointed out in my biography:--

Despite general acceptance of the ten tribe theory, not all scholars agreed, especially those who questioned the propriety of relying on an apocryphal book, the authority and inspiration of which had increasingly come under attack. Acceptance of the Apocrypha was becoming a distinguishing feature between Catholics and Protestants, and in 1827 the American Bible Society removed it entirely from their editions of holy writ. Proponents of the ten tribe theory also found themselves at odds with those who preferred biblical explanations since having Israelite colonists settle in a previously uninhabited land effectively ruled out earlier migrations from the tower of Babel.

To settle the controversy, Smith switched the location of the Israelitish departure from the northern kingdom of Israel to the southern kingdom of Judah, specifically to the capital city of Jerusalem, and changed the time from 734 to 600 B.C. in order to have the migration party leave prior to the Babylonian captivity, which the author believed occurred about 600 B.C. This innovation made the task easier because a southern migration placed the story within familiar ground and allowed the narrative to draw from Old Testament prophets, especially Isaiah, whom the northern kingdom would not have known. To write about a northern migration would have required more inventiveness.

Free of the restrictions imposed by Esdras, a reconciliation of opposing views could be introduced by including mention of an earlier migration to America from the Tower of Babel, thus retaining the concept of an ancient settlement in America as well as allowing for the later introduction of Jewish traits among New World populations.

--Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, 122.


At any rate, the Book of Mormon is not about the ten tribes, but is an intentional variation on that theme--one, according to the witnesses, Solomon did not think of.

under the command of NEPHI and LEHI. -- I find it difficult believing after 20+ years one could confidently remember two strange and invented names. Oddly, these are the two names remembered by nearly all the witnesses, because they are likely the ones either heard or recently read. No one apparently bothered to test their memories, such as asking them to volunteer names they remembered and then checking them against the Book of Mormon.

They afterwards had quarrels and contentions, and separated into two distinct nations, one of which he denominated Nephites and the other Lamanites. Cruel and bloody wars ensued, in which great multitudes were slain. They buried their dead in large heaps, which caused the mounds so common in this country. Their arts, sciences and civilization were brought into view, in order to account for all the curious antiquities, found in various parts of North and South America. -- Of course, anyone under the influence of the Mound Builder Myth is going to have two groups warring until one is annihilated and buried in the mounds. So this similarity is not surprising since it shows up in MS Story, View of the Hebrews, and the Book of Mormon. In this regard, one should consult Roper's discussion and parallel columns demonstrating how nicely John's and Martha's descriptions of the Mound Builders fit with Solomon MS Story. See the following link, beginning at note 103:--

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/display.php?table=review&id=584

The names that John used--Nephites and Lamanites--were likely supplied by his recent reading of the Book of Mormon.

I have recently read the Book of Mormon, and to my great surprize I find nearly the same historical matter, names, &c. as they were in my brother's writings. -- What does "nearly the same historical matter" mean? Did he find the general outlines of the Mound Builder Myth in both books the same? He has already said that he didn't read his brother's MS, but that his brother read "many passages" to him. If he did not read the MS, how did he know how to spell the strange made-up names? How can he claim they were "as they were in my brother's writings"? It seems more likely that his vague memories were being conflated with his recent reading of the Book of Mormon.

I well remember that he wrote in the old style, and commenced about every sentence with "and it came to pass," or "now it came to pass," the same as in the Book of Mormon, --

These two phrases will be repeated verbatim in Henry Lakes statement ("I well recollect telling Mr. Spalding, that the so frequent use of the words 'And it came to pass,' 'Now it came to pass,' rendered it ridiculous"), which perhaps points to Hurlbut's prompting a respond concerning it from his witnesses. Regardless, I find it difficult to believe Spalding was a habitual user of these phrases and that they are virtually absent from his MS Story. MS Story might not use "and it came to pass", but it does use scriptural and archaic language such as "thy", "thou", "thee", "behold", "O", "thou art", "thou shalt", "thou shouldst", etc. Note the following passages:--

Now, Gentle Reader, the Translator who wishes well to thy present and thy future existence entreats thee to peruse this volume with a clear head, a pure heart, and a candid mind. If thou shalt then find that thy head and thy heart are both improved it will afford him more satisfaction than the approbation of ten thousand who have received no benefit. And now permit me to admonish thee, that if thou shouldst reside in or travel through any part of the country (p. 5)


Let the stranger find an hospitable resting place under thy roof. Give him to eat from thy portion, that when he departs he may bless thee and go on his way rejoicing. Say not to thyself, 'I will indulge in inactivity and idleness and lie upon the bed of sloth and slumber away the precious moments of time.' For in this thou art unwise. For disease will attend thee, hunger will torment thee, and rags will be thy clothing . Let industry and economy fill up the measure of thy waking moments; so shall thy countenance display health and sprightliness. Plenty shall supply the wants of thy family and thy reputation shall be respectable. But I behold a being in human form, from whom I turn away with disgust and abhorrence. He is covered with so much dirt and filth, that no ethereal body is provided for him nor can he be received into the abodes of the blessed. (60)


Aside from the "and it came to pass" part, John's memory may have been based on these kinds of passages.

and according to the best of my recollection and belief, it is the same as my brother Solomon wrote, with the exception of the religious matter. -- What is the "and belief" part mean? Does "best of my recollection" imply some doubt?

By what means it has fallen into the hands of Joseph Smith, Jr. I am unable to determine. -- At this time, there was no theory for how Joseph Smith would have come into possession of Spalding's MS--it was simply a claim based on vague 20+ year-old memories of a similar MS.

Martha Spalding, the wife of John Spalding, says: --

I was personally acquainted with Solomon Spalding, about twenty years ago. I was at his house a short time before he left Conneaut; he was then writing a historical novel founded upon the first settlers of America. He represented them as an enlightened and warlike people. He had for many years contended that the aborigines of America were the descendants of some of the lost tribes of Israel, and this idea he carried out in the book in question. -- The lapse of time which has intervened, prevents my recollecting but few of the leading incidents of his writings; but the names of Nephi and Lehi are yet fresh in my memory, as being the principal heroes of his tale. They were officers of the company which first came off from Jerusalem. He gave a particular account of their journey by land and sea, till they arrived in America, after which, disputes arose between the chiefs, which caused them to separate into different lands, one of which was called Lamanites and the other Nephites. Between these were recounted tremendous battles, which frequently covered the ground with the slain; and their being buried in large heaps was the cause of the numerous mounds in the country. -- Some of these people he represented as being very large. I have read the Book of Mormon, which has brought fresh to my recollection the writings of Solomon Spalding; and I have no manner of doubt that the historical part of it, is the same that I read and heard read, more than 20 years ago. The old, obsolete style, and the phrases of "and it came to pass," &c. are the same.

--Howe, Mormonism Unvailed 280-81.


The close similarity in phrasing to her husband's account opens the possibility that her memory and his had been improved as they struggled together to remember the contents of Solomon's MS. Unlike her husband's statement, however, she is more forthright in stating that "the lapse of time which has intervened, prevents my recollecting but few of the leading incidents of his writings." I will not deal with the parts of their testimonies that overlap, but with her unique statements.

Some of these people he represented as being very large. -- This seems to be an accurate memory:--"As to their persons, they were taller on an avarage than I hade ever seen in any nation—their bones were large, limbs strait & shoulders broad" (MS, 40). This was a common theme in Mound Builder Mythology.

Palmyra Herald, Vol. 2, 30 Oct. 1822: "American Antiquities" reports the discovery in an Ohio mound of large skeletons buried in a Christian manner, west to east. This source also makes a distinction between mound builders and Indians. The only hint in the Book of Mormon is with reference to the Jaredites they found large copper and brass breastplates and swords "cankered with rust" (Mos. 8:10-11)--implying that the Nephites were not so large.

I have read the Book of Mormon, which has brought fresh to my recollection the writings of Solomon Spalding; -- Aside from the same names her husband gave (Nephi and Lehi, Nephites and Lamanites) and the problematic ten tribe theory, she offered nothing but vague Mound Builder Myth similarities, which is also true for MS Story. One cannot rule out the probable conflation of 20+ year-old memories of MS Story, recent reading of the Book of Mormon, and discussions with her husband.

and I have no manner of doubt that the historical part of it, is the same that I read and heard read, more than 20 years ago. -- Well, at least as far as a "few of the leading incidents" are concerned. I'm sure she was quite convinced by the general similarity between MS Story and the Book of Mormon, together with false memories with regard to the strange-invented names.


So far, there is no way to test the memories of the witnesses, and much to question them as conflations of vague memories, recent reading of the Book of Mormon, and cross-contamination and the possible development of false memories.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_Uncle Dale
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Post by _Uncle Dale »

Dan Vogel wrote:SPALDING THEORY: HOW IT ALL GOT STARTED

One criticism I have of Cowdrey, Davis, and Vanick's Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon?... is that it
ignores the dangers of interviewers leading the witnesses and witnesses contaminating one another. There is no
awareness that the Spalding theory had a life and history of its own that needs careful examination. The witnesses
were also caught up in the Spalding phenomenon and were blending memories with interpretations.



Actually, Dan, this is a "phenomenon" which I have considered. Every now and then somebody will point out to me
a previously unexamined old Spalding claims source, and I am left to wonder if the writer or reporter of the information
in that source was aware of all that had gone on before his/her day --- or if that source was even aware of most of
what had gone on in Spalding-Rigdon reporting before his/her day.

My conclusions have generally been that such sources were typically aware of the Spalding claims -- because
those claims were practically the only non-Mormon explanation for the "Nephite Record" offered to the general
reading public from the late 1830s down to the early years of the 20th century.

The information in such sources was typically given at the solicitation of an investigator, or a book/article writer, or
in response to an ongoing discussion of the Mormons in the popular press. However, some peripheral source material
seems to have come directly from witnesses (or reports from witnesses, or from mundane records, etc.) in which the
source appears to have been unaware of the Spalding-Rigdon claims -- or at least unconcerned with them. These sources
have usually sparked my interest and attention in ways that testimony-givers knowing much about Spalding and
Rigdon have not. I know that a couple of people connected with the researching or compilation of Art's book share my
perceptions in this regard.

We have a parallel "phenomenon: in the case of testimony and supporting evidence elucidating the secret polygamy of
Joseph, Hyrum and William Smith at Nauvoo. My RLDS/CoC coreligionists tend to dismiss much of the pro-polygamy
evidence as examples of "interviewers leading the witnesses and witnesses contaminating one another;" as well as "the
witnesses" being "caught up in the [polygamy-exposing] phenomenon" so that they "were blending memories with
interpretations." The results of this super-cautionary stance by the RLDS, is that they generally disallow the examination
of ANY evidence put forward by, solicited by, or even cited by the "apostate Mormons" and the "persecuting Gentiles."
Obviously we can be too accepting of cumulative evidence, just as we can be too dismissive of such material.

I have had the opportunity of discussing either a little or a lot of the obscure sources I have uncovered, with LDS
scholars & apologists such as Matt Roper, Matthew J. Tandy, Ara Norwood, Rex C. Reeve, Wade Englund, Lester E. Bush,
etc. Allow me to present a sort of composite response I have derived from such people, in the case of George Wilber's
early eye-witness testimony concerning Sidney Rigdon:

(1) I have been told that the Wilber testimony about Sidney Rigdon working rather secretively on an extended bout of
manuscript writing, while he lived at Bainbridge twp., Geauga Co., Ohio, four miles east of Mr. Wilber's residence, must
be disallowed from consideration, because we do not have any authenticated, first-hand document from Mr. Wilber himself.

(2) I have been told that the Wilber testimony of Rigdon having met with Joseph Smith, in or near Bainbridge, during
the mid-1820s, must be disallowed from consideration, because Charles E. Henry, the friend of Wilber's who preserved
that information was obviously very anti-Mormon in his feelings and statements -- and, furthermore, that his father,
John Henry, who knew Rigdon at the time they both lived within a couple of miles of each other at Bainbridge, was
obviously very critical of Rigdon and of Rigdon's restorationist religion. Also, because Charles Henry's report of Wilber's
testimony was not published until 1886, we cannot rule out that it was simply a re-hash of the testimony given by Rigdon's
niece, Amarilla Brooks Dunlap, from when she visited Rigdon's Bainbridge cabin in 1826 or 1827. Since Rigdon's neice's
recollection of Rigdon and his manuscript had been published in 1879, her words must have contaminted Mr. Henry's
own 1886 reporting of what his father and his friend Mr. Wilber had once said. And, as one last matter, it is even possible
that Arthur B. Deming stopped to visit with the Henry family, during his collection of statements from old Auburn residents
like Isaac Butts and Emily Rockwell Stafford, who had known either Rigdon, Smith or both. In fact, Mr. Henry's report
may have been copied directly from Deming, and thus might be a sterling example of evidence "cross-contamination."

(3) I have been told that the Wilber testimony of Rigdon having lived within a few dozen yards of the schoolhouse where
Wilber purportedly taught school in 1825-26, is unreliable, because the only records of Wilber having been a teacher, or
having been associated with public education, comes from his own residence in adjacent Auburn, Ohio and not from
Bainbridge (four miles to the west).

(4) I have been told that the Wilber testimony of Rigdon having met, known, and cooperated with Joseph Smith, Jr. in
and around Bainbridge-Auburn is unreliable, because any such activities purportedly witnessed by or communicated to
George Wilber, would have been conducted under such a cover of secrecy, that Wilber could not possibly have known
of any such improbable collusion --- therefore, it stands to reason that Mr. Wilber was an anti-Mormon who made up
his account out of thin air and/or his friend Charles E. Henry embellished Wilber's testimony for anti-Mormon purposes:
that both men must have become aware of Rigdon's alleged participation with Smith in writing the Book of Mormon, and
that their memories (and those of Charles' father John and his cousin's wife Dencey Thompson Henry, both of whom
knew Rigdon personally) had become adversely tainted by the later developments of anti-Mormonism.

(5) That George Wilber was an unreliable witness, because he must have learned of his neighbor, Gad Stafford, having
been a very early follower of Joseph Smith, from Pomeroy Tucker's 1867 book, and therefore Wilber had let his
imagination run wild with him -- thinking that because Gadius Stafford had moved into Auburn before Joseph Smith
announced finding the "golden plates," that Stafford would have naturally provided a place for Smith and Rigdon to
get together, on his farm in "Kirtland" (as the hamlet at the center of Auburn was then called). Thus, just because
Tucker had called Mr. Stafford a money-digger and Smith-follower in 1867, George Wilber must have projected back
in time that picture of Stafford to a period 40 years beforehand.

(6) And, finally, that George Wilber's opinion of Joseph Smith had been totally corrupted by the arrival of his next-door
neighbor, Joshua Stafford the younger, who (like his uncle Gadius) had come from Manchester, NY to live in Auburn.
Since Joshua was identified, along with Gad, as money-digging followers of Smith on page 38 of Tucker's book, George
Wilber again let his imagination run away with him, believing all of Joshua's wild tales of being a Smith-follower back
in Manchester (along with re-tellings of his 1833 statement given to D. P. Hurlbut and published the next year by Howe).
Thus, Wilber having one of D. P. Hurlbut's star witnesses, in his campaign against the reputation of the Smith family,
living next door to his farm in Auburn, negatively influenced Wilber's testimony. Also, the fact that Wilber's next
neighbor on the road north from his residence (after Stafford) was Henry Capron, the son of Joseph Capron (another
1833 Hurlbut witness from Manchester, NY), served to taint his testimony. Finally, the fact that Elias Fish, a cousin of
Abraham Fish of Manchester, bought his own father's farm (the Pardon Wilber homested in Auburn) from him, gave
Wilber access to the contaminating, second-hand input of yet another Smith associate (since Tucker had also pointed
out Abraham Fish as a Smith-follower, and because his cousin Elias Fish lived for many years in neighboring Macedon
and would have told George Wilber all the juicy tales of Palmyra area money-digging).

So -- the testimony of George Wilber must be stricken from the record, along with the early evidence uncovered by
Carl M. Brewster (a cousin of Charles Henry and a member of the Brewster family whose farms were the next ones
north of Stafford and Capron, on the road running from the Wilber farm up towards Mentor). Since Brewster found
articles in the old Geauga Democrat of money-digging and seer-stone consultations going on in Auburn, dating to
a little before the arrival of Gad Stafford there, such reports must be disallowed, as the cumulative effects of hostile
recollections of the very money-diggers who had persecuted Joseph Smith, when he refused to share with them the
great value of the golden treasure he had at last uncovered, after so many night-time attempts in their company.

Since these Manchester money-diggers who congregated in Auburn during the 1820s and 1830s were obviously
anti-Mormons (John L. Brooke, in his The Refiner's Fire pp. 369-370, identifies some of them as Smith-followers
who did not accept Mormonism), then any information given by them, or about them, in old Geauga Co., Ohio
newspaper articles, must be stricken from the record. In the same way, so must the allegations of the Rev. Lawrence
Greatrake, in his 1826 pamphlet, (published at Mantua, Ohio and preserved by the Ohio Historical Society in Columbus).
If Rev. Greatrake says that Sidney Rigdon, while living in Bainbridge that year, was associating with a confidence man
and crystal gazer, then Greatrake's 1826 testimony must be disallowed as that of an objective witness, since he was
Rigdon's replacement in the Baptist Church at Pittsburgh, put in office by Rigdon's opponents, and was for years
afterward an avowed enemy of Sidney (and also of Alexander Campbell, Walter Scott and Sidney's brother-in-law,
Adamson Bentley) -- an enemy who had followed Rigdon all the way to Bainbridge, to dig up dirt on the poor fellow.

None of this stuff can be talked about -- because it is cumulative stuff and has obviously been contaminated by people
hostile to Smith and Rigdon. It is therefore impossible that Sidney Rigdon ever rode his horse five miles to the east to
visit with Gad Stafford in 1827, or four miles to the east to visit with the Antisdale family, or the Butts family, or half a
dozen other Palmyra/Manchester families who congregated in Auburn before 1829. In fact, Isaac Butts' statement in
the "Early Mormon Documents" compilation should also be suppressed, because Isaac knew Joseph Smith and was
related to Abraham Fish via the marriage of Isaac's cousin, Pardon Butts, to Fish's wife's sister. Or, if Butts' statement
is not fully removed from the EMD set, it should at least be edited, to remove the reference of any Auburn, Ohio man
of Manchester, NY extraction knowing Sidney Rigdon before the Book of Mormon was published. Just as all other material
supportive of any facet of the Spalding-Rigdon theory has been removed from the EMD set, so should parts of Butts'
testimony, and perhaps also that of Emily Rockwell Stafford of Manchster and Auburn (since her brother Porter Rockwell
could not possibly have visited her or her Stafford in-laws (along with his friend Smith) in Auburn before 1832).

It is also impossible that so young a man as Joseph Smith, Jr. would have traveled so far afield from his Manchester
home, to visit with the likes of the Stafford clan in far-off Kirtland hamlet, Auburn township, Geauga Co., Ohio. So,
we must also throw out Mr. Purple's account of Smith having traveled westward, out of NY, before 1826, seeking a new
seer-stone, (or we must at least edit its appearance in the EMD set to eliminate any reference to Smith which might
prove helpful to Spalding-Rigdon advocates) -- and, of course, we must totally reject Thurlow Weed's undocumented
allegations of a similar early westward journey by young Smith. Anybody who accused Smith of such distant youthful
rambles was no doubt biased in his speculative reporting, having doubtless heard of Smith's subsequent long-range
travels in company with Sidney Rigdon to Washington, D.C.; Salem, MA; Independence, MO; Upper Canada; Detroit, MI,
etc. Reports of these sorts of later Smith travels have cross-contaminated one another, giving some biased reporters
the plausibility of saying that Smith could have visited Auburn, Ohio (in company with Oliver Cowdery or Port Rockwell)
before Smith himself actually moved immediately south of Auburn, in later years, to temporarily reside in Hiram. And,
while we are editing old statements, so as not to provide any help to the Spalding advocates, let's also edit out Mr.
Saunders' mention of Oliver Cowdery having come to the Manchester area from "Kirtland" -- after all, that is where
Gad Stafford and his money-digging friends and relatives were then living, and we would not want to place a man so
innocent as rodsman Oliver Cowdery in the probable company of any crystal-gazers, now would we?

Brent is right -- all the Spalding evidence is worthless, because of the "wherefore/therefore" distribution in the Book of Mormon text --
and I ought to immediately burn my files and give up my useless researching this sort of "cross-contaminated" hearsay.

Uncle Dale
Last edited by Bedlamite on Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:01 am, edited 6 times in total.
_Uncle Dale
_Emeritus
Posts: 3685
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Post by _Uncle Dale »

Dan Vogel wrote:
Some of these people he represented as being very large. -- This seems to be an accurate memory:--"As to their persons, they were taller on an avarage than I hade ever seen in any nation—their bones were large, limbs strait & shoulders broad" (MS, 40). This was a common theme in Mound Builder Mythology.

Palmyra Herald, Vol. 2, 30 Oct. 1822: "American Antiquities" reports the discovery in an Ohio mound of large skeletons buried in a Christian manner, west to east. This source also makes a distinction between mound builders and Indians. The only hint in the Book of Mormon is with reference to the Jaredites they found large copper and brass breastplates and swords "cankered with rust" (Mos. 8:10-11)--implying that the Nephites were not so large.

I have read the Book of Mormon, which has brought fresh to my recollection the writings of Solomon Spalding; -- Aside from the same names her husband gave (Nephi and Lehi, Nephites and Lamanites) and the problematic ten tribe theory, she offered nothing but vague Mound Builder Myth similarities, which is also true for MS Story. One cannot rule out the probable conflation of 20+ year-old memories of MS Story, recent reading of the Book of Mormon, and discussions with her husband....

So far, there is no way to test the memories of the witnesses, and much to question them as conflations of vague memories, recent reading of the Book of Mormon, and cross-contamination and the possible development of false memories.



Neither the LDS leaders nor the RLDS leaders have ever made it clear to me why the magic spectacles Smith reported
finding in the stone box were far too large for a common man, but the breastplate they attached to were of a convenient
size for Smith to slip into while he performed his translating. An RLDS Sunday School teacher I had, once told the
class that this was because the "interpreters" were Jaredite and the breastplate was Nephite -- and, that while some
Nephites were large folks, it was their predecessors the Jaredites, who were the giants who were the great spectacles,
etc. Mormon writer Phyllis Carol Olive, however, seems to think that the Nephites were also large people. The name
Nephi has a sound similar to the biblical giant nephilim, of course -- no matter if it is a related word or not.

Did Solomon Spalding write about big mound-builders in his story set in biblical narrative style? If so, there would be
something of a problem in that, if he also derived all of the mound-builders from the northern Israelite tribes. Then
again, John Spalding's second statement says that Solomon Spalding also wrote about pre-Israelite people coming to
the Americas, so perhaps they were the giants spoken of and he continued the same notion in his "biblical" story
as he had put forth in the Oberlin tale -- that the mound-builders were taller than any people an Old World observer
might ever have seen.

For my thoughts on this, see my "Conneaut Giants" web-page, here:
http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/saga2/sagawt0a.htm

As for John Spalding and his wife, one version of the account of their writing statements seems to indicate that they
sent them in by mail to either Hurlbut or Howe -- if so, then they might well have adjusted their statements to better
match each other, before submitting them. If they gave the accounts directly to Hurlbut, they still might have helped
each other out, but it would naturally seem reasonable that Hurlbut would have wanted to preserve any unique
material in either of the statements, if he was a true investigator of the past -- and if he had hopes of using the
information supplied by the witnesses to help him uncover additional useful sources (like the manuscript itself).

I believe that Hurlbut obtained the statements of John and his wife as a result of Hurlbut's own missionizing work
in Crawford Co., PA -- that he either heard their recollections while he was still a Mormon operating in that area, or
that he at least became aware that they had stories to tell. The account given by Spalding's widow, of John attending 'a Mormon meeting and there rising to protest the plagiarism of his late brother's writings in the Mormon scriptures is
not a likely event to have happened in New Salem (Conneaut), Ohio, since John lived a considerable distance from
that place during the 1830s. However, if the event is recast as John having attended a Hurlbut preaching service in
Crawford Co., PA, near his own home, the story becomes more plausible.

I also believe that Hurlbut presented the statements of John and Martha Spalding to the Kirtland area anti-Mormons,
as a sort of bait in order to solicit their financial contributions -- and that only after "getting the job" of researching
Mormonism for that group did he pass through New Salem and gather 5 other statements there. One statement I
think (the Cunningham recollection) was obtained by Howe himself. According to Howe there were probably additional
statements which were never used in his book and were discarded. Some of Howe's papers ended up with the daughter
of Lewis L. Rice in Honolulu and were evidently donated to the Hawaii State Archives by her husband. When I am
feeling better I will try go over there and look for the papers.

Uncle Dale
Last edited by Bedlamite on Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:58 am, edited 5 times in total.
_marg

Post by _marg »

Dan wrote:After much prodding to get into the discussion, Art responded in a recent post listing reasons for believing there was more than one Spalding MS. He simply quoted sources that said there was more than one, and left to me to analyze them. The fact that some witnesses said Spalding had many writings doesn't prove he had the one writing that matters most--the MS Found. Other witnesses Art quoted cannot be understood apart from the context in which the statements were created.


Dan,
Art’s post did much more than “simply quote sources” I'll give you the benefit of doubt and assume you missed it. I’ll repeat some of the other evidence he provided. by the way, while it is prudent to be skeptical of Spalding witnesses, one factor which is important to consider is “motivation.” Did these witnesses seek out reporters to tell their story to? Were these witnesses anti Mormon or were they non Mormon? Did they seem to have a overly keen interest in promoting their recollections of Spalding’s manuscript having similarities to the Book of Mormon? Is it likely they conspired together?

Spalding witnesses all say it was common for Spalding to read to friends, boarders, family, business acquaintances quite regularly so it’s understandable there will be many witnesses to his readings. This recollection seems to credible. The witness statements support the actual evidence that Spalding wrote, and wrote more than just one piece of work, that the Roman story in existence is unfinished and therefore probably not the one brought to the printers upon completion. Yes, the witnesses may have had faulty memory, may remember some things based on planted memories but the witnesses were consistent that the Roman story was not the one they had previously told Hurlbut about. Given the fact that the Roman story was unfinished and that strong evidence supports that a completed manuscript had been brought to the printers by Spalding, it is with high probability likely there were 2 different stories and this is consistent with the witnesses’ statements. In this case the witnesses statements are strengthened because they are consistent with strong evidence of a complete manuscript being brought to the printers. It is also likely the witnesses did their best to recollect the details of the story but given the lapse of time, probably did did err, and probably were influenced by the Book of Mormon, however the way the brain works oftentimes certain information does tend to stick.be remembered much more than other, even over long periods of time. Something like “and it came to pass” would likely stick in memory much more so than storyline details. So yes, Dan you can criticize their memory but overall their memories support other evidence in particular that the uncompleted Roman story manuscript in existence was not the same manuscript brought to the printer’s by Spalding.


From Art's post (I've colored what I think are signficant points)

"(A) Benjamin Winchester’s premise that Hurlbut, motivated by a desire “to obtain revenge,”(ref: Winchester [1840], 6) concocted a notorious fabrication around Spalding and then sought to deceive the world with it, is both illogical and untenable in light of Hurlbut’s subsequent behavior. If he knew from the very beginning that the entire story of a Spalding-Book of Mormon connection was nothing more than the product of his own vengeful imagination, a creation deliberately designed to deceive, then it makes no sense whatsoever that Hurlbut would devote all of his energies over the next several months to seeking out the very manuscript which, once found and compared to The Book of Mormon, would not only destroy the theory he had striven so hard to promote, but would likely wreck whatever was left of his own reputation in the process. In other words, the presumption that Hurlbut would actively promote a lie and then set out on a quest to uncover the one piece of evidence capable of exposing him as a liar is patently absurd. "

So if Hurlbut was attempting to influence witnesses in order to destroy Mormonism, he actually did the opposite. By finding the unfinished Roman story by Spalding and it having little obvious resemblance to the Book of Mormon, it looks like he in fact was working on behalf of the church, by showing that the manuscript which the witnesses might be remembering is similar to but does not correspond to the Book of Mormon. This evidence indicates Hurlbut was not an overzealous investigator helping to plant ideas into the witnesses minds. If he was overzealous it would have been better for him to destroy the Roman story manuscript.

From Art's post (again I colored parts red) :

“(D) The very physical appearance of the Oberlin manuscript itself virtually destroys the Mormon argument that this was the same work Spalding submitted to the Pattersons for their consideration.
First of all, Story was never finished. It progresses, howbeit fitfully, up to the point of a final war, devotes about forty pages to a description of that war, and then ends abruptly in the middle of a page just as the two opposing armies appear ready to begin the final battle.
Secondly, this manuscript cannot possibly have been the one Spalding took to the Pattersons, for it is hardly fit for publication. For example, a number of changes in the spellings of proper names occur throughout the text; Siota becoming Sciota, Hadokam changing to Hadoram, Bombal to Banbo, Labarmock to Labamack, Lambon to Lambdon (note the similarity to Lambdin here-- q.v. Chapt. IV), and Mammoons being later designated as Mammouths. In one especially confusing passage, two Kentucks who sneak into the Sciotan camp by night are identified as Thelford and Hamkien on one page, and as Kelsock and Hamkoo on the next. Later, even Hamkoo changes to Hamko” Aside from the fact that the manuscript itself is incomplete, can anyone imagine that Spalding actually submitted such a work to the Pattersons for their erudite consideration?
Furthermore, Story begins as a first-person narrative told by its hero Fabius, and remains thus through chapter four. In chapters five through eight however, only a few passages are in the first person; and in all the remaining text (which comprises more than half the manuscript) everything is written in the third-person. These chapters contain lengthy and often intimate conversations, but provide the reader with no explanation as to how Fabius could have obtained such information. “As Spalding neared the end of his story, he must have realized that he had no plausible way to return to his first-person account,” and that radical changes to his manuscript would be necessary in order to reconcile this difficulty.
Consider also the circular logic used by Mormon writers when they criticize supporters of the Spalding Enigma who hold that there must have been at least one other Spalding manuscript in existence. The Mormons claim, of course, that Spalding wrote only one manuscript, the one which Hurlbut found in the trunk, Manuscript Story-- Conneaut Creek, which, as we have shown, is obviously unfinished and in no condition to be presented to a publisher. Yet they do not question that Spalding took a manuscript to the Patterson brothers for their consideration. If not this one, then which one?

(E) Another piece of evidence indicating that Manuscript Story and A Manuscript Found were not one and the same can be found in the recollections of Redick McKee and Joseph Miller, Sr., both of whom befriended the Spaldings during their residence at Amity between 1814 and 1816, and later recorded statements providing many details about Solomon, his family, and his manuscript. What is important here is the fact that both individuals recalled a certain specific detail about Spalding’s A Manuscript Found which seems to have escaped prior notice.
According to Miller: “...When Mr. Spalding lived in Amity, Pa., I was well acquainted with him.... He had in his possession some papers which he said he had written. He used to read select portions of these papers to amuse us of evenings. These papers were detached sheets of foolscap. He said he wrote the papers as a novel. He called it the Manuscript Found, or The Lost Manuscript Found. He said he wrote it to pass away the time when he was unwell; and after it was written he thought he would publish it as a novel, as a means to support his family.”(ref: Washington, PA, Reporter, April 8, 1869; Creigh, [1870], 89-93. Miller’s statement is dated March 26, 1869) And, “...Mr. S. was poor but honest. I endorsed for him twice to borrow money. His house was a place of common resort especially in the evening. I was presenting my trade as a carpenter, in the village and frequented his house. Mr. S. seemed to take delight in reading from his manuscript written on foolscap for the entertainment of his frequent visitors, heard him read most if not all of it, and had frequent conversations with him about it.”(ref: Pittsburgh Telegraph, Feb. 6, 1879)
According to Redick McKee: “One day when I called he [Spalding] was writing upon foolscap paper, taken from some old account book. My curiosity was excited, and I said to him, that if he was writing letters I could furnish him with more suitable paper. He replied that he was not writing letters, but... [a] story he called The Manuscript Found. It purported to give a history of the ten tribes, their disputes and dissentions... etc.”(ref: McKee to Deming, Jan. 25, 1886, in Chicago Hist. Soc.)
These memories constitute an extremely important detail because foolscap was a very special kind of paper with particularly distinguishing and readily identifiable characteristics. An examination of the original manuscript of Spalding’s Manuscript Story, conducted at our request by Roland M. Baumann, Archivist of Oberlin College’s Mudd Library, revealed that no foolscap was employed in the creation of that work.
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