Evidence for Jesus

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_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

marg wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:con·tra·dic·tion /ˌkɒntrəˈdɪkʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-truh-dik-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the act of contradicting; gainsaying or opposition.
2. assertion of the contrary or opposite; denial.
3. a statement or proposition that contradicts or denies another or itself and is logically incongruous.
4. direct opposition between things compared; inconsistency.
5. a contradictory act, fact, etc.

You see, GoodK? The Friday/Saturday comment doesn't fall into the category of contradiction. You have supplied no discussion regarding "Friday/Saturday" nor have you demonstrated that you've engaged scripture in light of Jewish culture. You simply grab something from a skeptic site (or book) and slap it up here as if it's something new. The skeptic sites that you presumably frequent, make the very same mistakes. There is no in depth research involved, it's superficial material intended to satisify superficial thinkers.


Again, the "Friday/Saturday" comment does not constitute "contradiction".

Got more?


According to the course by Ehrman I mentioned previously it appears to me there is a contradiction on this.

In Mark the day before his arrest Jesus gives disciples instructions for preparation of Passover meal, it is prepared, they eat it at night, next morning Jesus taken away and crucified @ 9 am

In John, he was taken away and tried the day of preparation of passover meal and executed before the meal even began.

The accounts contradict one another. The same execution can not occur on different days, that is logically incongruous.


marg,

Thank God! ;-) In a previous post not so far back in this thread (made today) I supplied a link from Religious Tolerance.org on this topic. There you can see presented, a variety of perspectives including an explanation of "sabbath" and how it relates to this issue. If you're interested in that, have a look.

I'll check back here later to see if this was something you wanted to pursue.

Jersey Girl
_marg

Post by _marg »

Jersey Girl wrote: marg,

Thank God! ;-) In a previous post not so far back in this thread (made today) I supplied a link from Religious Tolerance.org on this topic. There you can see presented, a variety of perspectives including an explanation of "sabbath" and how it relates to this issue. If you're interested in that, have a look.

I'll check back here later to see if this was something you wanted to pursue.

Jersey Girl


I tend to rely on reputable scholars not skeptic sites..sheesh! :) And as I pointed out Ehrman on this particular instance of when Jesus was tried and executed described the events as being contradictory between John & Mark. I've made my case that there is a contradiction. Apparently you don't think there is. Why is that?
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

marg wrote:
marg wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote: When I asked earlier in the thread for evidence of challenge of the New Testament stories the answer I got (and always get) is that there are none.



Jersey Girl, In what time frame during or after Jesus's death would you expect challenges to exist, what would they be challenging, and from whom (I don't mean specifically, I mean generally)?


I asked you this question previously. Could you please answer this. I don't understand why you think there should have been challenges in the first place. As I said, what would anyone be challenging and if so when.


I remember this question, marg, and it got lost in the shuffle of the last week. I think I had the Talmud in mind when I wrote that, including the Babylonian Talmud. I'm still unclear as to the date of those mentions of "Yeshu".
"
And this...

The other issue was that skeptics (and not only skeptics) claim that the Gospels were written during a given time frame. For example, let's say 70-100 AD generally. If that is the case, if the Gospels were written down and presumably distributed, where are the challenges to those writings?

Here you have a band of early Christians writing down "testimony" of Jesus and no one appears to be challenging it, certainly not the Jews or Romans. You'd think that the Jews or Romans would be disturbed by these religious scriptures, have recorded something about them and attempted to discredit them. The Romans, it would appear, challenged the early Christians based on largely political reasons, but you don't see (so far as I'm aware) any Jewish or Roman writings that state something to the effect:

"The so-called Christians are a cult of insane religious fanatics who base their stories on a fictional character. Their savior didn't exist! How dare they choose to use the names of Pilate (who I admit wasn't much beloved) Herod and others in their twisted tales of a savior! They've made it all up, these pot stirrers!"

Sorry, that wasn't a very good presentation. I'll be back later...
_Nevo
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Posts: 1500
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Post by _Nevo »

GoodK wrote:If the only evidence (and it has been repeated here for over ten pages that the evidence for Jesus is the New Testament) can't get the details of the story right, and we have nothing else to go on besides this inconsistent story, an intellectually honest person would question the story.

Yes, they would! And that is precisely what scholars do.

As E. P. Sanders explains:

The gospels present impressionistic portraits of Jesus. We can learn from these impressions, but we can also discover quite objective information. . . . The basic means of establishing evidence is cross-examination. The gospels must be treated as 'hostile witnesses' in the court room. . . . The gospels want the reader to believe that Jesus is the son of God and that faith in him saves. The material in them is shaped--more or less completely--to this end. In attempting to persuade the reader, however, the evangelists used material, and that material as a whole has some relationship to the historical man Jesus. . . .

At first it seems that all the evidence is biased towards Jesus. It is, however, extremely important to note that, while we have for Jesus no equivalent to Aristophanes on Socrates, we can discern in the gospels that he offended many and that he was executed on a serious charge. That is, the gospels, though biased in his favour, give us a glimpse of views held by those who were biased against him.

Once we can discern both favourable and unfavourable portraits of Jesus, we can ask what is common to both portraits, and we may have considerable confidence that what is common is historically sound. The discovery that sources are biased should not lead to the view that they are useless, but rather to patient and careful analysis and examination to ferret out the hard historical data which they have employed for their own purposes.

-- E. P. Sanders and Margaret Davies, Studying the Synoptic Gospels [London: SCM Press, 1989), 301-302.

Dale Allison enumerates some of the criteria scholars use to authenticate material that goes back to Jesus:

The plausibility that a complex or topic originated with Jesus is . . . increased if the Christian tradition has seemingly struggled with it, and especially if there are signs that the early Jesus tradition itself sought to domesticate or reinterpret the item. . . . One example is Jesus' prophecy of the destruction and rebuilding of the temple, which receives more than one interpretation and is in Mark attributed to false witnesses. A second example is Q 6:27, the imperative to love one's enemy. It has, because of its extreme demand, been modified in or dropped altogether from the paraenesis in the canonical and extracanonical parallels to Q 6:27-38.

The plausibility that a complex or topic originated with Jesus is increased if one cannot concoct a persuasive narrative explaining its emergence in the post-Easter period. . . . Consider [for example] the topic of Pilate as Roman governor when Jesus was crucified. Even if one were to attribute all of the post-Markan references to Pilate to Markan influence and further deny a historical core to the story in Mark 15:1-15, it would be difficult to offer a convincing explanation of why Christian legend landed on Pilate in particular. Here is a case where a topic--Jesus crucified under Pontius Pilate--seems historical apart from the issue of whether it appears in any authentic complexes.

-- Dale C. Allison, Jesus of Nazareth: Millenarian Prophet (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1998), 52-53.

If you are really interested in examining the evidence for the historical Jesus you can find it laid out in painstaking detail over 2, 130 pages in John P. Meier's multivolume series, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus. He does not accept the testimony of the Gospel writers uncritically; instead, he applies a rigorous historical-critical methodology throughout.

The consensus I noted earlier regarding the basic outline of Jesus' life reflects the assured results of decades of critical scholarship. That you glibly dismiss it with the absurd insinuation that the New Testament writings cannot yield factual information because they contradict each other in places suggests that you have little or no understanding of historical Jesus scholarship, or indeed of historical research generally.
_marg

Post by _marg »

Nevo wrote:
That you glibly dismiss it with the absurd insinuation that the New Testament writings cannot yield factual information because they contradict each other in places suggests that you have little or no understanding of historical Jesus scholarship, or indeed of historical research generally.


Besides being an ad hominal which seems to be the modus operandi in discussion of just about every religious individual in this thread, that is just attack anyone who doesn't share your opinion, you are grossly distorting and misrepresenting GoodK's argument.

The reason why the Gospels are unreliable regarding the historicity of Jesus because that is by the way what GoodK is arguing not what you bring up Nevo, "historical Jesus scholarship, goes well beyond that they contradict each other, that's only one aspect of why they are unreliable evidence for Jesus' existence. And no where did I read GoodK imply that because there are contradictions that means there can not be any factual information in the them.

And if you disagree and think GoodK did made the argument you say he/she did then quote please.
_GoodK

Post by _GoodK »

Jersey Girl wrote:
GoodK wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
And once again...there is no derailment here, GoodK. You raised the issue.


It's clear to anyone who can read that you are now backpeddling away from your previous post. I provided some good examples of our "exchange".

I don't see what the big deal is, if you want to discuss the many, many flaws in what is known as the Bible, I'm down like a clown, Charlie Brown.

I'll keep my eyes out for a new thread (in one of the lower kingdoms, of course, because ad hominems aren't allowed here)


What's clear GoodK, is that you are unable or unwilling to engage the issues that you yourself raised in a discussion of Evidence for Jesus. The "big deal" is that this is a topical discussion and you fail to engage the topic. By all means, keep your eye out wherever you wish and feel free to report my posts here to any moderator of your choice. I've already asked the mods to review my posts and you?


Jersey Girl, this is probably the last off-topic exchange I will indulge you with.
The issue is whether or not there is evidence for Jesus, not whether or not the New Testament contradicts itself.
I'll let the other posts speak for themselves...
_GoodK

Post by _GoodK »

marg wrote:
Nevo wrote:
That you glibly dismiss it with the absurd insinuation that the New Testament writings cannot yield factual information because they contradict each other in places suggests that you have little or no understanding of historical Jesus scholarship, or indeed of historical research generally.


Besides being an ad hominal which seems to be the modus operandi in discussion of just about every religious individual in this thread, that is just attack anyone who doesn't share your opinion, you are grossly distorting and misrepresenting GoodK's argument.

The reason why the Gospels are unreliable regarding the historicity of Jesus because that is by the way what GoodK is arguing not what you bring up Nevo, "historical Jesus scholarship, goes well beyond that they contradict each other, that's only one aspect of why they are unreliable evidence for Jesus' existence. And no where did I read GoodK imply that because there are contradictions that means there can not be any factual information in the them.

And if you disagree and think GoodK did made the argument you say he/she did then quote please.


Yes, I would also like Nevo or Jersey Girl to quote where I said that.

It's nothing more than a distraction
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Post by _Jersey Girl »

GoodK wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
GoodK wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
And once again...there is no derailment here, GoodK. You raised the issue.


It's clear to anyone who can read that you are now backpeddling away from your previous post. I provided some good examples of our "exchange".

I don't see what the big deal is, if you want to discuss the many, many flaws in what is known as the Bible, I'm down like a clown, Charlie Brown.

I'll keep my eyes out for a new thread (in one of the lower kingdoms, of course, because ad hominems aren't allowed here)


What's clear GoodK, is that you are unable or unwilling to engage the issues that you yourself raised in a discussion of Evidence for Jesus. The "big deal" is that this is a topical discussion and you fail to engage the topic. By all means, keep your eye out wherever you wish and feel free to report my posts here to any moderator of your choice. I've already asked the mods to review my posts and you?


Jersey Girl, this is probably the last off-topic exchange I will indulge you with.
The issue is whether or not there is evidence for Jesus, not whether or not the New Testament contradicts itself.
I'll let the other posts speak for themselves...


GoodK,

One more time. The topic is Evidence for Jesus. The New Testament was raised as evidence for Jesus. You rejected the New Testament as evidence for Jesus, in part, because you assert that the New Testament contradicts itself. I then asked you to provide evidence for said contradictions, you supplied the Friday/Saturday issue as evidence for said contradictions and I countered.

Of course, the issue of contradictions is part of the topic. If you felt it were not, you wouldn't have raised the issue.

If you disagree with the above evaluation, tell me why you raised the issue.
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Post by _Jersey Girl »

I want to just address the following before moving forward.

Jersey Girl wrote:You are free to make that request to a moderator, GoodK, however there is no derailment of topic here. You raised the issue of contradictions in the New Testament in order to support your position that the New Testament is unreliable as Evidence for Jesus. When you raise an issue in the context of a topical discussion such as this, you can expect someone to attempt to engage it, in this case me.


GoodK wrote:Are you not a moderator, or are you too busy beating on straw men, using ad hominems and red herrings?


I am a moderator who has stated on this board numerous times that I will not take moderatorial action on a thread in which I am a participant. That is to say,in no uncertain terms, I will not accept moderator requests on this thread due to the possibility of my own bias as participant.
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Post by _Jersey Girl »

marg wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:con·tra·dic·tion /ˌkɒntrəˈdɪkʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-truh-dik-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the act of contradicting; gainsaying or opposition.
2. assertion of the contrary or opposite; denial.
3. a statement or proposition that contradicts or denies another or itself and is logically incongruous.
4. direct opposition between things compared; inconsistency.
5. a contradictory act, fact, etc.

You see, GoodK? The Friday/Saturday comment doesn't fall into the category of contradiction. You have supplied no discussion regarding "Friday/Saturday" nor have you demonstrated that you've engaged scripture in light of Jewish culture. You simply grab something from a skeptic site (or book) and slap it up here as if it's something new. The skeptic sites that you presumably frequent, make the very same mistakes. There is no in depth research involved, it's superficial material intended to satisify superficial thinkers.


Again, the "Friday/Saturday" comment does not constitute "contradiction".

Got more?


According to the course by Ehrman I mentioned previously it appears to me there is a contradiction on this.

In Mark the day before his arrest Jesus gives disciples instructions for preparation of Passover meal, it is prepared, they eat it at night, next morning Jesus taken away and crucified @ 9 am

In John, he was taken away and tried the day of preparation of passover meal and executed before the meal even began.

The accounts contradict one another. The same execution can not occur on different days, that is logically incongruous.


marg,

There is something it the above asserted by Ehrman that doesn't square with me. At the outside chance that you are online and reading this right now, are you using "passover meal" in terms of what is traditionally called "The Last Supper"? I need a bit of time to examine this in my Bible and then come back to it here.

I'll try to have a response shortly (this evening).
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