Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_Albion]

Gosh, I forget a main point. Peter's comment in Acts 3 reads thus: " Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he send the Christ, who has been appointed for you - even Jesus. He must remain in Heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets." NIV Acts 3:20-21.

A key word in these verses is the word "refreshing"...believers will experience periods of refreshing from the Lord. This is connected to the next verse relating to God restoring everything he promised his prophets. Matthew 17 talks of a restitution of all things by Elijah (who has come by now) in preparation for the first coming of Christ. The restoration mentioned here is the restoration of the whole universe to its original and intended perfection...remember not only did man fall but all of creation also. This will take place when Christ comes again. Jesus spoke of this same regeneration in Matt. 19: 23 terming it a "renewal of all things"....the new heaven the new earth.

[_gdemetz]

Albion, you are really mixed up. First of all, it is not just a refresing! It is the RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS!!! Secondly, if there were no need for prophets after Christ's ministry, then why does in call me who ministered after Christ in the New Testament, PROPHETS?!?!? Thirdly, this is not a debatable point that the SAINTS were overcome, whether you accept it or not, the scriptures clearly and plainly state that the beast made war with the saints AND OVERCAME THEM for 42 months (1260 years - see Clarke's Commentary)! That is what necessitated the RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS!!!!!!!

[_Albion]

Indeed, even today people are inspired by the Holy Spirit in many ways....but in terms of the prophets of old, they are fulfilled, swallowed up in Christ who was the very purpose of their role. Why do Christians need prophets when they have Christ Jesus who has not left us comfortless but has provided the Holy Spirit as guide and counselor? You have a complete book of so-called "prophecies" and "revelations" from Joseph Smith. The man could do virtually nothing without putting a "thus saith the Lord" to it...does it not bother you that for some reason your so called prophets since have added essentially nothing? I think this alone points to Smith as the fraud that he was.

[_jo1952]

Indeed, even today people are inspired by the Holy Spirit in many ways....but in terms of the prophets of old, they are fulfilled, swallowed up in Christ who was the very purpose of their role. Why do Christians need prophets when they have Christ Jesus who has not left us comfortless but has provided the Holy Spirit as guide and counselor? You have a complete book of so-called "prophecies" and "revelations" from Joseph Smith. The man could do virtually nothing without putting a "thus saith the Lord" to it...does it not bother you that for some reason your so called prophets since have added essentially nothing? I think this alone points to Smith as the fraud that he was.

Hi Albion,

First of all, the purpose of the Prophets was not only or always to teach of Christ who was to come. Now, they did speak of repentence in order to keep the wrath of God from falling upon the peoples; which often (but not always) caused the people to repent; thus avoiding God's wrath. Moses' main purpose was to free God's children as the slaves of the Egyptians and to establish the Law of Moses. Where Jesus teaches that all the law and prophets have been fulfilled in Him, Jesus is speaking about the law and prophets which pertained to His coming. There are other prophecies of the end times and Jesus' return which have not yet been fulfilled.

Indeed, there were several Prophets we are aware of who lived AFTER Jesus' death and Resurrection who are named in the New Testament:

*Simeon (Niger) in Acts 13:1
*Lucius in Acts 13:1
*Manaen in Acts 13:1
*Judas in Acts 15:32
*Silas in Acts 15:32
*Agabus in Acts 21:10
*John the Beloved - the Book of Revelation
*Two un-named prophets who are to come in the last days as
prophesied by John in the Book of Revelation
*"Eilias (Elijah) truly shall first come and restore all things." Jesus'
words (before Christ returns)
*And this important message from Acts 2:17

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

Therefore, I believe it is a misreprentation of the purpose of the Holy Spirit to be the one who will guide us; thus negating the need for any additional Prophets for the world. His purpose is to guide us as individuals. And part of that guidance is to give individuals prophosies for their own benefit, as well as the benefit of their families and loved ones. He can also give prophesy to inspired religious leaders who are NOT Prophets. God has not stopped using Prophets to communicate with mankind.

Also, we can see the the Holy Spirit was busy in the Old Testament as well. It is just that the "gift" of the Holy Spirit was not given to each believer until after Christ's Ascension. Here are some passages where you will see that the Holy Spirit is specifically mentioned:

Psa 51:11, Isa 63:11, Dan 4:8-9, Dan 4:18, Dan 5:11.

Here you will find a link of the history of the Prophets of the Old Testament:
http://www.christianityoasis.com/DailyB ... bakkuk.htm

The recap is 33 Old Testament Prophets; and 13 New Testament prophets as I question whether Barnabas (who was an Apostle) was also a Prophet. I need to research this. If he also did Prophesy, than there were 14 Prophets in the New Testament. The ones missing from the list are Jesus, the return of Elias (Elijah) and the two un-named prophets of the book of Revelation. Remember, our sons and daughters who will prophesy in the last days are obviously not included in this list.

Please note that if you add the years these men served as Prophets, you will see that there were great periods of time when God did not have prophets on the earth. Therefore to make a claim that just because Presidents of the LDS Church have not made prophecies which affect all of mankind since the days of Joseph Smith leads you to a false conclusion. In fact periodically various of the LDS Prophets HAVE received revelations; but they pertained only to certain small groups of people which were not meant for the entire world.

Sadly, it appears to me that whoever has been teaching you about prophets has overlooked a great deal of what the Bible teaches about God's Holy Prophets. In fact, in doing so, they have thrown out a great deal of the Bible's teachings.

Blessings,

jo

[_gdemetz]

Great post again Jo! I hope that that was enough prophets for Albion to realize that he was wrong yet again, by a long shot.

[_Drifting]

Hello drifting? Have you not read in the scriptures where God states not to counsel Him? That is why Christ had no counselors. That changed later.

Can you point to where it changed?
Top tip: don't say immediately after He died because that is when he called the additional 12 in America. Note it was 12, not 12 with an additional 3.

Bump for gdemetz.

Double bump...

[_gdemetz]

The twelve in the Americas were not the quorum of the twelve, Drifting. Jesus took Peter, James, and John with Him to the mount of transfiguration to have bestowed upon them, as a first presidency, the keys of the sealing power. We know that other apostles were called at various times, including the apostle Paul, but it is hard to calculate exactly how many made up the quorum including the first presidency since the records are scarce and the accurate details of deaths and replacements are not available.

[_Albion]

Jo, what about the statement in my post did you not understand? I wrote "...even today people are inspired by the Holy Spirit in many ways...but IN TERMS OF THE PROPHETS OF OLD they are fulfilled, swallowed up in Christ who was the very purpose of their role."

Included under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is the gift of prophesy and some believers no doubt have it. You mention various people referred to as prophets in the New Testament. None of these filled roles like the prophets of old...none were leaders of substance within Christ's church...none are mentioned except in passing and none even meet the false criteria of Mormon prophets. I defend, too, my assertion that the whole purpose of prophets, together with the Law, was part of the overall purpose in God's plan to prepare a special people apart from all others. Even at the time of Samuel there were those mentioned at prophets... Gad was one who only gets a passing mention and even Saul was known to prophesy....but neither ranked with Samuel just as none of those you mention rank with him or any of the other great prophets.

Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, clearly demonstrated on the Mount of Transfiguration, and we have not only the Holy Spirit as guide and comforter but Jesus himself who makes intercession on behalf of believers as our High Priest at the right hand of God the Father. Who else do we need? Who else can compare.

[_gdemetz]

Albion, when you quot yourself, I stopped taking that seriously! You are arguing again with what the Bible states in clear plain English. It may not fit your false Evangelical beliefs, but that does not change the fact that the New Testament correctly refers to some who ministered after Christ as prophets. Furthermore, if there were no prophets and apostles later, the there would have been no restitution of ALL things as the Bible also clearly has testified of!

[_Drifting]

The twelve in the Americas were not the quorum of the twelve, Drifting.

CFR