Spirituality or just emotion...?

[_SteelHead]

Frank, it is Israel not just Judah that must be gathered. Where are the rest of the tribes?

11. And it shall come to pass that on that day, the Lord shall continue to apply His hand a second time to acquire the rest of His people, that will remain from Assyria and from Egypt and from Pathros and from Cush and from Elam and from Sumeria and from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

12. And He shall raise a banner to the nations,and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.

Isaiah 11:11-12

[_Drifting]

I have a personal witness. You are free to look all of this up in scripture. But since you place an agenda before you I fear you will see little.

Perhaps you should tell your witness to post here so he can corroborate your story...

[_Themis]

Edit: I would add that many like frank may be good example of seeing and believing what they want. I also think many of our spiritual expereinces are created by the mind to give us what we seek.

Do you think that you have an open mind? So tell me is the gathering of the Jews in Israel after two thousand years a vision or did it happen? If it happened was it because someone two thousand years ago predicted it? Or was it a coincidence? Now please list for me how many nations of people were scattered around the world and came back together after two thousand years? How strong are your feelings that a passage in the Bible are just words on a page? Since you must have studied me in order to form an educated opinion of my mind set please tell me what drives me to see things that are not there? To what end is my mind making visions for me to see? Please share the depth of your understanding.

I haven't followed this other discussion, and it is not really relevant to my post.

[_Franktalk]

Frank, it is Israel not just Judah that must be gathered. Where are the rest of the tribes?

It was Moses who said that some tribes would be captured and taken away. Those who believed left the northern parts and went south into Judah before the Assyrians took them away. Many went to Persia and then were scattered along southern Russia. These were the people of little faith yet they still called them self Jews. So all tribes are represented in Judah.

http://www.israelect.com/reference/Will ... aptive.htm

For those who wish to learn more can view this link. I found it interesting.

[_sheryl]

This supports my idea of reality being independent of our abilities to perceive it all. I made no comments about consequences, but certainly agree that consequences are a result of our actions, and of course can provide knowledge we did not seek for or desired.


I only used jail as an example of people who have no emotions or desires for certain knowledge that they will get without any desire to learn it.


Since we do not know what all the mind is capable of producing, I think it is incorrect to jump to this conclusion. I wonder of this is why some attribute it to a higher being.


I know hallucinations can sometimes be shared. I assume you do not include yourself in this group that is having this shared expereince.


Could you be more clear in how the expereince is shared?

Be careful here. Many in different groups make this mistake. We tend to gravitate towards those who think and believe like we do. That is natural, but we can come to jump to some conclusions that are not warranted. If someone is interpreting their expereinces a certain way, they will tend to gravitate towards others or groups that have similar interpretations.


While I agree with this to a certain point, we also need to be careful here as well. It can be easy to see what we want. Our minds like to give us what we want, or at least create what we want.

Edit: I would add that many like frank may be good example of seeing and believing what they want. I also think many of our spiritual expereinces are created by the mind to give us what we seek.

Dear Themis,

These thoughts that you have expressed reveal the misunderstanding that has arisen throughout the masses about God. The Holy One desires or wills our happiness, the fulfillment of our desires. It is we who struggle with distorted desires and feelings of lack and unworthiness, resulting in a deep lack of faith.

God has not left us here to our own 'devices' or abilities. He has provided us with a remnant from generation to generation of those who possess a knowledge and understanding of God, being vehicles of God's Light Presence and Power in this world. To remove the distortions from our true desire, which is for unity with God. So indeed, may God purify our desires and give us what we want!

Shalom.

Sheryl

[_Themis]

Dear Themis,

These thoughts that you have expressed reveal the misunderstanding that has arisen throughout the masses about God. The Holy One desires or wills our happiness, the fulfillment of our desires. It is we who struggle with distorted desires and feelings of lack and unworthiness, resulting in a deep lack of faith.

God has not left us here to our own 'devices' or abilities. He has provided us with a remnant from generation to generation of those who possess a knowledge and understanding of God, being vehicles of God's Light Presence and Power in this world. To remove the distortions from our true desire, which is for unity with God. So indeed, may God purify our desires and give us what we want!

Shalom.

Sheryl

I respect that is your belief, but I see no evidence that it is true. This is not to say that it is wrong. Even if there are a few people who possess knowledge and understanding who cares. How do you know who they are? This is fact suggests God is not really part of it if he/she has any intelligence. If God won't communicate with the masses and wants us to follow an unknown group who might have it right, then yes he has left us to our own devices. This certainly explains why there is so many different religions and beliefs. We even go to war sometimes over these beliefs.

[_jo1952]

You do not think that being sent to jail is a consequence of pursuing the desire that landed them there? Perhaps going to jail cannot be separated from a desire to act in a way that brings harm to others? And so the desire to know evil includes the desire to suffer the consequences, yes? Knowing evil must include how God's law - or the logos or word that is the impetus for creation and also sustains creation - responds to evil.

Hi Sheryl!

I know that you enjoy Paul's teachings, as do I. The above reminds me of the following:

Romans 13:1-4

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Wow! So, I would offer that even Lucifer has powers of God!! However, he has chosen to use those powers to influence us to choose evil. Is this not necessary for us to experience in order for us to progress?!!! How many people would rather deny this teaching and say it is impossible that God is the one who gave satan his powers, because they do not recognize that it is satan who chooses to use them for evil rather than for good? Especially, they are offended to think such a thing because they believe it somehow detracts or diminishes Christ in some way. For me, this only is indicative of how awesome Christ truly is, for He used the powers of God for ONLY good--resisting the influences of evil choices of others who have powers of God.

by the way, in studying Romans the other night, I also came across a passage which supports your discussion on the world being a dream state of our spiritual existence in the flesh.

Romans 13:11-14

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


He has also taught that once we belong to Christ, our spirits are saved and God sees our spirits and basically disgards our mortal self. However, WE are still suffering in the flesh from our own ideas and attachment to it - for that is where we choose evil over good - it is NOT our spirit which makes these choices. If our spirits "mortify" our physical choices, we are still good with God; but our "damnation" is self induced, and NOT by God. Inasmuch as Paul himself "died daily", so do we, even though our spirits belong to God. Oh, there is so much freedom in this understanding - even though we struggle with it until we become more and more perfected and One with Christ and Father and with each other.

Is this not beautiful?? All praise and Glory to the Most High God Almighty!!!!

Shalom,

jo

[_jo1952]

Spiritual experiences are a part of the physical world. It is an internal expereince, and as such cannot be shared other then through language. This is why physical evidence that can be shared is more valuable in trying to determine how things really are.

I would offer that the physical world exists within the spiritual world and cannot be seen with physical eyes. Our journey is to be made in faith; not in physical proof. If one believes only in the Creation, then that is all that they will see.

It's not that the spiritual is does not have value, it just that it dopes not tend to be reliable at telling us how things really are. This should be very evident to anyone objective enough to look around and see just how much people disagree about spiritual knowledge or interpretations.

No two people are the same. In our uniqueness, we traverse our journey in a very personal way. Depending upon where we are in our journey determines what we are able to discern and understand on a spiritual level. Most people, in the their attachment to the world, confuse what it is they are seeing; thus they interpret what they see differently than others do. This does not translate into the spiritual being false or at odds with itself. It is a translation of the person experiencing the spiritual who is merely at a different point in his understanding. Even the ancient Apostles did not have all the same experiences or understanding of the spiritual; nor had Christ taught them everything that He knew. He revealed only what Father told Him to reveal. Likewise, it is the Holy Ghost who witnesses all Truth; but each individual only has revealed a portion of that Truth from time to time in accordance with what they are able to understand...all in response to what Father instructs the Holy Ghost to reveal to them.

Not really. The physical is more reliable, so if it does not support an interpretation one gets from the spiritual, then it is less likely to be accurate.

With all due respect, I think you just confirmed in your own words what I had just shared with you.

Love,

jo

[_Themis]

I would offer that the physical world exists within the spiritual world and cannot be seen with physical eyes.

The physical world involves much more then the physical eyes can perceive. The spiritual expereince is an internal experience which means it will not be seen with the eyes.

Our journey is to be made in faith; not in physical proof.

You don't know this at all. BY saying that you have to have faith is saying you don't know at all. It's just a belief, and no offense, not a very good one. This is why we have so many conflicting beliefs that people ask us to believe on faith. Give us a real reason to have faith in your claims over the thousands of others asking to have faith in different claims.

If one believes only in the Creation, then that is all that they will see.

Many people see what they want to see.

No two people are the same. In our uniqueness, we traverse our journey in a very personal way. Depending upon where we are in our journey determines what we are able to discern and understand on a spiritual level.

This is why the physical expereinces that are sharable are more reliable.

Most people, in the their attachment to the world, confuse what it is they are seeing; thus they interpret what they see differently than others do.

LOL Sorry but I found it a little funny. Another words my interpretations are correct and others who disagree must be wrong.

With all due respect, I think you just confirmed in your own words what I had just shared with you.

You see what you want to. You with your own words about the unreliable nature of people and the spiritual expereinces verifies that yes the physical experience that is sharable is indeed more reliable at giving accurate information about the world around us. This is why the spiritual has less likelihood of being accurate compared to the sharable experience. I am not saying the spiritual does not have great value, but I can at least show that yes it does have less agreement on what they mean then does the physical that is shareable.

[_jo1952]

The physical world involves much more then the physical eyes can perceive. The spiritual expereince is an internal experience which means it will not be seen with the eyes.

I would agree. I would also offer that what man has discovered about the Creation creates what they think is true one day until someone comes along with a new discovery which then changes previously held truths. And round and round we go. The spiritual experience, though, once we learn to discern the Holy Ghost's witnesses of spiritual Truth is ONLY experienced spiritually. Whereas physical "truths" are experienced with physical senses, spiritual Truths are not; though a spiritual truth results in physical reactions. The difference is that we experience them first NOT with our physical senses, but with our spirit self.

You don't know this at all. BY saying that you have to have faith is saying you don't know at all. It's just a belief, and no offense, not a very good one. This is why we have so many conflicting beliefs that people ask us to believe on faith. Give us a real reason to have faith in your claims over the thousands of others asking to have faith in different claims.

Faith is a living and active thing. It is not a one time action. If we are progressing spiritually, then our faith is growing as well. You have shown how it is that you can have faith in a physical claim made by a man. You reason with their claim and make your own choice as to whether or not you will believe their claim. You test it; and, based upon your own previous experiences and world view, make a determination about it. You are using the same method on spiritual claims made by man. However, you will never have a manifestation of a spiritual experience while using your worldly methods. You will not find a spiritual "reason" from ME. You must sincerely seek it from GOD. He will generally not give you a spiritual experience if that is not what you desire, as this would interfere with your free will. Therefore, you will receive what it is you are sincerely looking for. If you do not seek Him, He will not reveal Himself. I do not have the ability to reveal Him to you.

Many people see what they want to see.

I agree.

This is why the physical expereinces that are sharable are more reliable.

From a physical standpoint, physical experiences do at first appear reliable. However, there is a huge spread of opinion as to the interpretations of what man experiences in the physical. As a for instance, you can ask ten people who witnessed the same automobile accident, and you will likely get ten different stories.

LOL Sorry but I found it a little funny. Another words my interpretations are correct and others who disagree must be wrong.

Actually, once more I agree with you because among those who are attached only to the world, many WILL argue that if you don't agree with them, then you are obviously incorrect. Those who argue this way about their religious beliefs still have one foot firmly planted in the world which is currently unshakable according to the tradition of what they have been taught about what they believe. They may not have actually experienced the spiritual, or have not developed their discernment...but depend upon what others have told them; thus limiting themselves to pre-conceived notions about the spiritual world. Actually, this is quite normal. Faith and seeking need to continue and be added upon in order to evolve and grow, as evidenced by how we are all at our own personal point in our journey.

Love,

jo