Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_Albion]

Are you answering for Jo now, gedemtz? But since you have decided to respond at least I'll pose a question for you. Jo mentioned several people mentioned in the New Testament as prophets. I repeat that none filled any kind of role similar to the great prophets of the Old Testament so what exactly was their role in Christ's church? Were they great leaders who operated in addition to the apostles giving directives for the church as a whole, or were they just individuals with the spiritual gift of prophesy? Can you give any of their prophecies, subject etc.?

[_SteelHead]

The twelve in the Americas were not the quorum of the twelve, Drifting. Jesus took Peter, James, and John with Him to the mount of transfiguration to have bestowed upon them, as a first presidency, the keys of the sealing power. We know that other apostles were called at various times, including the apostle Paul, but it is hard to calculate exactly how many made up the quorum including the first presidency since the records are scarce and the accurate details of deaths and replacements are not available.

Where does the Bible state they were ordained a first presidency?

[_gdemetz]

Albion, the New Testament is full of prophets and apostles as I have told you before, and I have even mentioned some of those prophesies to you! Remember how the apostle Peter PROPHESIED of the "restitution of all things.? Remember how Paul PROPHESIED that Christ would not come until there was a "great falling away first"? There are so many PROPHESIES by true PROPHETS in the New Testament, Albion. Do you remember the Biblical test for a true prophet, Albion?

Steelhead, that is what we call them today.

[_jo1952]

Albion, when you quot yourself, I stopped taking that seriously! You are arguing again with what the Bible states in clear plain English. It may not fit your false Evangelical beliefs, but that does not change the fact that the New Testament correctly refers to some who ministered after Christ as prophets. Furthermore, if there were no prophets and apostles later, the there would have been no restitution of ALL things as the Bible also clearly has testified of!

GD,

Somehow it is okay for others to do what they accuse us of doing....sigh...

Love,

jo

[_jo1952]

Jo, what about the statement in my post did you not understand? I wrote "...even today people are inspired by the Holy Spirit in many ways...but IN TERMS OF THE PROPHETS OF OLD they are fulfilled, swallowed up in Christ who was the very purpose of their role."

Included under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is the gift of prophesy and some believers no doubt have it. You mention various people referred to as prophets in the New Testament. None of these filled roles like the prophets of old...none were leaders of substance within Christ's church...none are mentioned except in passing and none even meet the false criteria of Mormon prophets. I defend, too, my assertion that the whole purpose of prophets, together with the Law, was part of the overall purpose in God's plan to prepare a special people apart from all others. Even at the time of Samuel there were those mentioned at prophets... Gad was one who only gets a passing mention and even Saul was known to prophesy....but neither ranked with Samuel just as none of those you mention rank with him or any of the other great prophets.

Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, clearly demonstrated on the Mount of Transfiguration, and we have not only the Holy Spirit as guide and comforter but Jesus himself who makes intercession on behalf of believers as our High Priest at the right hand of God the Father. Who else do we need? Who else can compare.

Hello Albion,

So you believe that Jesus was lying to John about the two prophets who will be prophesying in the end times? Actually, I need to ask if you think the Book of Revelation should be in the Bible, since it is also a prophecy. So, do you think the Book of Revelation is Holy Scripture?

In fact, it would appear from your own words that even the Apostles weren't necessary....at least not after Pentecost. Yes??? After all, Jesus sent us the Comforter on that day.

Thank Heavens the Apostles were nice enough to record post-Pentecost about Jesus' ministry, His crucifixion, Resurrection, and the knowledge about the Comforter, or as you have stated: the Holy Spirit as guide and comforter but Jesus himself who makes intercession on behalf of believers as our High Priest at the right hand of God the Father. Who else do we need? Who else can compare. , since Jesus didn't write those things down. If we didn't have the writings of the Apostles, we would still be Gentiles or Jews, and would never have known about Christ's incarnation in the flesh; so we couldn't very well have asked the Holy Spirit to witness to us and confirm anything, or to ask for His Comfort. We would never have known that Christ had fulfilled all of the law and the prophets. We wouldn't be expecting His second Coming, because we would not be aware of His First. If we weren't Jewish, we wouldn't even recognize the Old Testament as Holy Scripture.

Blessings,

jo

[_Albion]

Jo, I think you are being obtuse with your response which does not address the point I am making so I'll repeat it as basically as I can. The spiritual gift of prophesy is alive and well in individuals together with all other spiritual gifts. The need for prophets of the type shown in the Old Testament is fulfilled in Christ who is the only high priest we need...a high priest who, once and for all, has made the ultimate atonement in himself and sits as our intercessor at the right hand of God.

[_gdemetz]

It's alive and well in the LDS church, Albion, and no where else. What does the Bible state as the true test of a prophet?!? Has anyone from any other church ever given a true prophesy?!?

[_Albion]

I don't know the answer to that question, gdemetz, and neither do you but then Christian churches do not make claims to having prophets of the order of Moses, Isaiah and such. Perhaps you could give us a list of all the prophecies you claim your "prophets" have made. I'll let you include Smith's so-called Civil War prophesy since Mormon's like to use that as the standard. (He did get the first part right but hardly a demonstration of prophet ability when the subject was in the news for years before the war actually came. Kind of like me predicting with a fair degree of accuracy that there will be some kind of action involving Iran in the near future) Perhaps you could give all those since Smith (just where are all the prophetic additions to the D&C?)...or maybe since McKay...or maybe since Hunter or Benson. I'll make it easy...how about since Monson came to power. That should be easy since you only have to look at one or two years. Now remember, even one false prophesy disqualifies the prophet's claims.

[_gdemetz]

I beg to differ with you, Albion, I do know! As for as the prophecy of Joseph Smith regarding the Civil war is concerned, was the part about it starting in South Carolina luck also?!? No it was not! He absolutely met the Biblical standard of a true prophet! If you heard the last conference, then you would know of Monson's prophetic powers also since he gave a classic example, however, maybe you were watching old reruns of Jim and Tammy Faye on the PTL club, or film of Jimmy Swaggart wearing his famous gray jogging pants.

[_Albion]

gdemetz, I acknowledged that Smith did indeed get the first part right but I stand by my contention that since these events were in the news at the time it wasn't a very difficult thing to predict, much like the example I gave. However, you choose only the accept the first part of what he said and not those parts in which he utterly failed....for instance, Great Britain did not get involved in the Civil War as he predicted and the Civil War did not lead to war being "poured out on all nations" unless you are claiming that subsequent wars in Europe and WWs one and two came out of the Civil War.


Now back to my challenge...one prophesy from Monson since he has been chairman of the board that is a real prophesy. I obviously wouldn't be watching "conference" since I am not a masochist...those trance-like talks do tend to have a way of putting one to sleep and are so lacking in any kind of expository preaching after all....homilies and feel good stories are no substitute for the preaching of the Gospel. A simple direct quote from Monson will do with or without the "thus saith the Lord".