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Zosimus, have any remnant traces of lox, bagels, and cream cheese been found in this area? That would be a powerful confirmation of Jewish roots.

Moksha wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:02 am

Zosimus, have any remnant traces of lox, bagels, and cream cheese been found in this area? That would be a powerful confirmation of Jewish roots.

There’s the Moksha we all know. For a while there I thought your account had been hacked

Zosimus wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:53 am

Moksha wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:02 am

Zosimus, have any remnant traces of lox, bagels, and cream cheese been found in this area? That would be a powerful confirmation of Jewish roots.

There’s the Moksha we all know. For a while there I thought your account had been hacked.

If I asked that question on the Mormon D&D board, I would be the one getting hacked with obsidian swords.

Zosimus wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:18 am

Agree, the text is clear that the Sidon headwaters at Manti ran from east to west. The only geography model that gets Sidon and all of the Land of Zarahemla right is Malay.

I’m sorry, but the map you present seems like a mass of rivers in confusion. The text explicitly states that Zarahemla is *by* Sidon and is *west* of that river. Recall that the Lamanites crossed the river from east to west in their war against Alma. Whoever labeled your map placed Zarahemla on the east of the river! It shows virtually all head waters flowing into many tributaries and into the EAST sea. The point I made earlier about water flowing east to west does not correspond with what’s on the Malay peninsula. River water originates from the head and exits the land into the mouth of the sea. In the case of the Book of Mormon peninsula we are informed that the inland head waters flow from east to west where the water meets the sea -- the western sea! But Malay (your map) offers little to that effect.

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:58 pm

I’m sorry, but the map you present seems like a mass of rivers in confusion.

I included all the tributaries I could find, to be thorough. The main river runs roughly like this:

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:58 pm

The text explicitly states that Zarahemla is *by* Sidon and is *west* of that river. Recall that the Lamanites crossed the river from east to west in their war against Alma. Whoever labeled your map placed Zarahemla on the east of the river!

Here's why I put Zarahemla on the east of the river. The modern city of Wiang Sra presently sits on the east side of the river, but archeological remains dating to the Book of Mormon time period sit on both sides of the river. Rivers tend to meander over the course of 2000 years. This is why I included all the tributaries, to give a better idea of the coarse a large river might cut through a plain over two millennia. You can zoom in at the area on Google Maps and see the dried out river beds as the single river cut different paths to the sea. I could move the pin over to the west side of the river, and it'd still be accurate representation of the location "Zarahemla". But I chose to keep it on the east side because that's where Google Maps has it. It's a difference of like 5 miles, so hardly a problem.

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:58 pm

The point I made earlier about water flowing east to west does not correspond with what’s on the Malay peninsula. River water originates from the head and exits the land into the mouth of the sea. In the case of the Book of Mormon peninsula we are informed that the inland head waters flow from east to west where the water meets the sea -- the western sea! But Malay (your map) offers little to that effect.

You're saying the River Sidon flows east to west and never runs north?

To get anywhere, we'd really need to agree to some sort of internal map that is independent of a real world geography. Maybe Richard Clark's "Revisiting A Key for Evaluating Book of Mormon Geographies”. He maps out the internal geography of the Book of Mormon without any attempts to make it match with a real world geography.

Zosimus wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:52 am

The Americanization of the narrative started somewhere between Martin Harris as scribe and Oliver Cowdery as scribe.

Well, according to Joseph’s mother, it started when he was 18 and Lucy said nothing about Malay or Asia being the source of the ancient inhabitants of the American continent. So, The “Americanization of the narrative started” when Joseph was no more than 18 years old.

Lucy Mack Smith wrote:During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined: he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent; their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, and their buildings, with every particular; he would describe their <​mode of​> warfare, as also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.

Zosimus wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:13 pm

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:58 pm

I’m sorry, but the map you present seems like a mass of rivers in confusion.

I included all the tributaries I could find, to be thorough. The main river runs roughly like this:

Hold everything. Stop right there.

Before we continue, I need to know where you stand. Which of the following best describes your belief:

[ ] The Book of Mormon is a genuine historical record and is true
[ ] The Book of Mormon is a work of fiction

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:18 pm

Well, according to Joseph’s mother, it started when he was 18 and Lucy said nothing about Malay or Asia being the source of the ancient inhabitants of the American continent. So, The “Americanization of the narrative started” when Joseph was no more than 18 years old.

Samuel Mitchell, the guy Martin Harris went to in 1828 for validation of the characters of the Book of Mormon, had told Martin that the characters were of a nation now extinct, and he named that nation.

This is extremely important. It is one of America's leading scholars providing positive validation to Martin Harris that the Book of Mormon characters were authentic. It was enough validation for Martin Harris to sell his farm.

What nation do you suppose Samuel Mitchell identified as the source of the Book of Mormon characters?

Richard Bennett says Malay and I agree. That's the story Martin Harris took back to Joseph Smith BEFORE the Book of Mormon was written.

Repeat, BEFORE the Book of Mormon was written.

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:26 pm

Before we continue, I need to know where you stand. Which of the following best describes your belief:

[ ] The Book of Mormon is a genuine historical record and is true
[ ] The Book of Mormon is a work of fiction

[X] My beliefs are irrelevant to the question about Book of Mormon geography, and I'm not going to answer because that makes it far too easy for our discussion to turn into an echo chamber

Zosimus wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:13 pm

You're saying the River Sidon flows east to west and never runs north?

No, that is not what I said and neither did I imply that. The river runs east to west in reference to where the head originates compared to where the mouth exits into the sea. The river may go all over the place in a snaky like fashion but the ultimate direction of flow is based on where the source is compared to the mouth.

The Thames River is said to run from west to east but we know it runs like a snake and portions go north and others go south. But ultimately the source is from the west and the end of the line is in the eastern sea.