DiscussMormonism.com

Zosimus wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:35 pm

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:26 pm

Before we continue, I need to know where you stand. Which of the following best describes your belief:

[ ] The Book of Mormon is a genuine historical record and is true
[ ] The Book of Mormon is a work of fiction

[X] My beliefs are irrelevant to the question about Book of Mormon geography, and I'm not going to answer because that makes it far too easy for our discussion to turn into an echo chamber

It *is* every bit relevant to the discussion and I will explain why.

IF you believe the Book of Mormon is a genuine historical record then you only need submit the most modern and update maps to show and demonstrate your case! And then I will refute those by using the text of the Book of Mormon.

IF you believe the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction then you only need submit maps that Joseph Smith may have seen and used to come up with his stories.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too. You’ll need to take a stand and declare your faith.

YOU are dealing with Shulem and that is no easy task!

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:46 pm

It *is* every bit relevant to the discussion and I will explain why.

IF you believe the Book of Mormon is a genuine historical record then you only need submit the most modern and update maps to show and demonstrate your case! And then I will refute those by using the text of the Book of Mormon.

IF you believe the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction then you only need submit maps that Joseph Smith may have seen and used to come up with his stories.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too. You’ll need to take a stand and declare your faith.

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:46 pm

YOU are dealing with Shulem and that is no easy task!

Zosimus wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:33 pm

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:18 pm

Well, according to Joseph’s mother, it started when he was 18 and Lucy said nothing about Malay or Asia being the source of the ancient inhabitants of the American continent. So, The “Americanization of the narrative started” when Joseph was no more than 18 years old.

Samuel Mitchell, the guy Martin Harris went to in 1828 for validation of the characters of the Book of Mormon, had told Martin that the characters were of a nation now extinct, and he named that nation.

This is extremely important. It is one of America's leading scholars providing positive validation to Martin Harris that the Book of Mormon characters were authentic. It was enough validation for Martin Harris to sell his farm.

What nation do you suppose Samuel Mitchell identified as the source of the Book of Mormon characters?

Richard Bennett says Malay and I agree. That's the story Martin Harris took back to Joseph Smith BEFORE the Book of Mormon was written.

Repeat, BEFORE the Book of Mormon was written.

The point is the “Americanization of the narrative” started with Lucy’s accounting of what Joseph described when he was a lad. What came later, came later. Smith was 23 when he began work in translating the gold plates so whatever details occurred in that era are of a later date. You are certainly welcome to offer your theories and explain them, i.e., Richard Bennett and Malay, but you cannot refer to that as the beginning of the Americanization of the narrative.

Everything in its proper place and order, please.

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:01 pm

The point is the “Americanization of the narrative” started with Lucy’s accounting of what Joseph described when he was a lad. What came later, came later. Smith was 23 when he began work in translating the gold plates so whatever details occurred in that era are of a later date. You are certainly welcome to offer your theories and explain them, i.e., Richard Bennett and Malay, but you cannot refer to that as the beginning of the Americanization of the narrative.

Everything in its proper place and order, please.

Would you say Joseph's fascination with the pirates sailing across the Indian Ocean from Kedah (Malaysia) to the Comoros Islands and his interest in the islands of the Arabian Nights came before or after his recitations of the modes of transportation used by Native Americans?

There's no way to know the proper order my friend.

Zosimus wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:57 pm

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:46 pm

It *is* every bit relevant to the discussion and I will explain why.

IF you believe the Book of Mormon is a genuine historical record then you only need submit the most modern and update maps to show and demonstrate your case! And then I will refute those by using the text of the Book of Mormon.

IF you believe the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction then you only need submit maps that Joseph Smith may have seen and used to come up with his stories.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too. You’ll need to take a stand and declare your faith.

Let every man declare his faith. THAT is what the faith requires! Either you’re a Christian and believe in the atoning sacrifice or you do not. It’s one or the other. Either you believe the Book of Mormon is a genuine and historical record or you do not.

Declare your faith in the Book of Mormon, please.

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:06 pm

Let every man declare his faith. THAT is what the faith requires! Either you’re a Christian and believe in the atoning sacrifice or you do not. It’s one or the other. Either you believe the Book of Mormon is a genuine and historical record or you do not.

Declare your faith in the Book of Mormon, please.

Its my opinion that the Book of Mormon is a genuine work of historical fiction.

Zosimus wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:10 pm

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:06 pm

Let every man declare his faith. THAT is what the faith requires! Either you’re a Christian and believe in the atoning sacrifice or you do not. It’s one or the other. Either you believe the Book of Mormon is a genuine and historical record or you do not.

Declare your faith in the Book of Mormon, please.

Its my opinion that the Book of Mormon is a genuine work of historical fiction.

Thank you.

Then it follows that Smith needed to know the geographical landform and the topography of Malay in which to base his stories. If he chose Malay to be the promised land then he would have consulted a map before proceeding. Seas, rivers, bodies of water, narrow neck, etc.

So, show me that map, please. Modern maps are irrelevant.

Zosimus wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:05 pm

Would you say Joseph's fascination with the pirates sailing across the Indian Ocean from Kedah (Malaysia) to the Comoros Islands and his interest in the islands of the Arabian Nights came before or after his recitations of the modes of transportation used by Native Americans?

There's no way to know the proper order my friend.

All I’m saying is the first reference I know of with America and native Indians being mentioned under the same breath comes from Joseph when he was a lad via his mother’s account. Thus, the “Americanization of the narrative” begins there unless you have a citation that shows otherwise. Any direct reference or ties with Malay being the source of the American Indian comes later. And all that is pure speculation.

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:19 pm

Thank you.

Then it follows that Smith needed to know the geographical landform and the topography of Malay in which to base his stories. If he chose Malay to be the promised land then he would have consulted a map before proceeding. Seas, rivers, bodies of water, narrow neck, etc.

So, show me that map, please. Modern maps are irrelevant.

I’ve got pre-1830 maps too, but like I said above, we’ll get nowhere unless we agree on an internal map first. Otherwise I’ll show you a map that has a Sidon running the way I think it should run and you’ll disagree because you interpret the text differently. I start with Richard Clark’s internal map. Take a look at that and let me know if you agree with it.

Zosimus wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:13 pm

To get anywhere, we'd really need to agree to some sort of internal map that is independent of a real world geography. Maybe Richard Clark's "Revisiting A Key for Evaluating Book of Mormon Geographies”. He maps out the internal geography of the Book of Mormon without any attempts to make it match with a real world geography.

Houston, we have a problem, come in Houston:

John E. Clark wrote:The river Sidon drained the Zarahemla Basin; it ran northward from its headwaters in the southern wilderness, just south of Manti. We lack information on the Sidon’s course north of Zarahemla. Given the relative elevations of the eastern and western wildernesses, the Sidon most likely drained into the east sea. As noted, the Sidon skirted the western flanks of the eastern wilderness. The Zarahemla Basin was at least several USD wide west of the Sidon.

The problem with faith promoting apologists is they look through lenses in which they base the geography of the Book of Mormon as nonfiction. They automatically assume the Book of Mormon is God’s word that describes the geography in a place where it really happened. They speak in terms as if it’s real history and that the Book of Mormon is true! To this day those fools have not figured out that the narrow neck is only 1 day’s distance in width. To this day they have not realized that Sidon in the Book of Mormon flowed eastward into the west sea. They are dodos! They peddle poison and their followers drink it.

John E. Clark is just another blind apologist (dodo) leading the blind! I don’t need him and neither do you!