LittleNipper wrote:You believe in relativism. I do not. I believe that there are absolutes --- right and wrong. God is perfect. Man falls short of perfection because he is now sinful by nature --- because of the Fall of Adam.
What is right and wrong and how does a person recognize it? If we are sinful by nature do we have any ability to recognize right and wrong? I think it is clear the Bible says we do have the ablitiy so your dodge about sinful nature will not allow you to say that either you or Ludwigam is incapable of recognizing right and wrong . So... what is the difference?
LittleNipper wrote:You believe in relativism. I do not. I believe that there are absolutes --- right and wrong. God is perfect. Man falls short of perfection because he is now sinful by nature --- because of the Fall of Adam.
What is right and wrong and how does a person recognize it? If we are sinful by nature do we have any ability to recognize right and wrong? I think it is clear the Bible says we do have the ablitiy so your dodge about sinful nature will not allow you to say that either you or Ludwigam is incapable of recognizing right and wrong . So... what is the difference?
Don't expect a coherent answer from him. Maybe a verse from the Bible, which has nothing to do with the point.
If we would accept - I don't - all of the verses gushed out here (2874 replies, 60705 views), then we are descendants of somebody who has eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of right and wrong. I hope it was an apple and not a banana...
OK, then I know what is right and what is wrong, and I act as somebody who knows. Killing seven thousand innocent human for counting them - especially after it was commanded - is wrong. Plain and simply. THIS is my point.
Period. Go your way, nothing to see here.
Again: I know what is right and what is wrong, and I act as such.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32
huckelberry wrote:“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32
The JofD is well describing the thoughts of the leaders of the early church --- same line as JS imagined.
Not a wonder, its citations disappeared from conference talks. Up to the 80s and 90s, there were a lot. The Hungarian 1991 version of D&C lists "JofD" among the abbreviations used. The 2005 version doesn't...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
LittleNipper wrote:You believe in relativism. I do not. I believe that there are absolutes --- right and wrong. God is perfect. Man falls short of perfection because he is now sinful by nature --- because of the Fall of Adam.
What is right and wrong and how does a person recognize it? If we are sinful by nature do we have any ability to recognize right and wrong? I think it is clear the Bible says we do have the ablitiy so your dodge about sinful nature will not allow you to say that either you or Ludwigm is incapable of recognizing right and wrong . So... what is the difference?
I believe the Bible is true and that what the Bible has to say concerning right and wrong is absolute. Ludwigm does not seem to believe the Bible is true or absolute. I do not dictate what is right or wrong. I believe the Bible presents exactly what God expects, and is clear that man is unable to keep His laws. God sent Christ to become sin and pay for the transgressions of those who acknowledge the sovereignty of the LORD Jesus Christ to forgive sin, and their own shortcomings ----- seeking forgiveness through Christ alone. Ludwigam time and again says that the Bible is nothing but the work of a lot of backward primitive men. In that Ludwigm is in direct opposition to what I believe, and more importantly ---- to what God has done and is capable of accomplishing.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
ludwigm wrote: Don't expect a coherent answer from him. Maybe a verse from the Bible, which has nothing to do with the point.
If we would accept - I don't - all of the verses gushed out here (2874 replies, 60705 views), then we are descendants of somebody who has eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of right and wrong. I hope it was an apple and not a banana...
OK, then I know what is right and what is wrong, and I act as somebody who knows. Killing seven thousand innocent human for counting them - especially after it was commanded - is wrong. Plain and simply. THIS is my point.
Period. Go your way, nothing to see here.
Again: I know what is right and what is wrong, and I act as such.
According to the Guttmacher Institute, there were 1.21 million abortions performed in the United States in 2008, the most recent year for which data is available. This amounts to 3,322 abortions per day. - See more at: http://prolifeaction.org/faq/abortion.php#yearly
And yet God in this age has been merciful. There are far worse things then dying and one I can think of is being totally rejected and hated. I believe that you have rejected the Lord and hate Him. And yet He is willing to forgive you during this life. Now is the opportunity. One cannot count on tomorrow. If man kills another without regard, he takes upon himself the eternal destiny of that individual. When the LORD takes the life of an individual, He knows exactly where that individual is going and why. And that is the big difference ---- and one you apparently do not comprehend.
1 Chronicles 29:1-30 David the king addressed the congregation, saying that Solomon was singled out and chosen by God but he’s young and untested and building the temple is a big task. The temple is not just a place for people meet together, but a house for God to meet the people. David says he did his best to get everything together for building this house for his God. This included all the materials necessary: gold, silver, bronze, iron, lumber, precious and varicolored stones, and building stones—vast stockpiles. Furthermore David turned over his personal fortune of gold and silver for making this place of worship for God: 3,000 talents (about 113 tons) of gold—all from Ophir, the best—and 7,000 talents (214 tons) of silver for covering the walls of the buildings, and for the gold and silver work by craftsmen and artisans.
David challenges everyone to also join in the giving. Ready and willing, the heads of families, leaders of the tribes of Israel, commanders and captains in the army, stewards of the king’s affairs, stepped forward and gave willingly. They gave 5,000 talents (about 188 tons) and 10,000 darics (about 185 pounds) of gold, 10,000 talents of silver (about 377 tons), 18,000 talents of bronze (about 679 tons), and 100,000 talents (about 3,775 tons) of iron. Anyone who had precious jewels put them in the treasury for the building of The Temple of God in the custody of Jehiel the Gershonite.
The people were full of a sense of celebration—all that giving! And all gave willingly. David blessed God in full view of the entire congregation:
"Blessed are you, God of Israel, our father from of old and forever. To you, O God, belong the greatness and the might, the glory, the victory, the majesty, the splendor; Yes! Everything in heaven, everything on earth; the kingdom all yours! You’ve raised yourself high over all. Riches and glory come from you, you’re ruler over all; You hold strength and power in the palm of your hand to build up and strengthen all. And here we are, O God, our God, giving thanks to you, praising your splendid Name."
David declares, who is he and who are these people, that they presume to be giving something to God? Everything comes from God; all they are doing is giving back what they been given from a generous God. They were homeless, shiftless wanderers like their ancestors, lives merely shadows, hardly anything. God provided all these materials—these piles of stuff for building the temple. David seems to understand, that God cares nothing for the surface— God wants, our true selves—and so I have given from the heart, honestly and happily. And now see all these people doing the same, giving freely, willingly—what a joy! O God, God of our fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, keep this generous spirit alive forever in these people always, keep their hearts set firmly in you. And give my son Solomon an uncluttered and focused heart so that he can obey what you command, live by your directions and counsel, and carry through with building The Temple for which I have provided.”
David then addressed the congregation: “Bless God, your God!” And they did it, blessed God, the God of their ancestors, and worshiped reverently in the presence of God and the king.
The very next day they sacrificial animals and offered in the worship a thousand bulls, a thousand rams, a thousand sheep, and in addition drink offerings and many other sacrifices. They feasted all day, eating and drinking before God with exuberance. Then they ceremonially reenacted Solomon’s coronation, anointing David’s son before God as their leader, and Zadok as priest. Solomon sat on the throne of God as king in place of David his father. And everything went well; all Israel obeyed him. All the leaders of the people, including all the sons of King David, accepted Solomon as their king and promised their loyalty. Solomon rode high on a crest of popular acclaim—it was all God’s doing. God gave him position and honor beyond any king in Israel before him.
David the son of Jesse ruled over all Israel for forty years. He ruled from Hebron seven years and from Jerusalem thirty-three. He died at a ripe old age, wealthy, and a celebrity. His son Solomon ruled after him. The history of David the king, from start to finish, is written in the journal of Samuel the seer, Nathan the prophet, and Gad the seer, including a large account of his rule, his exploits, and the matters through which he and Israel and the surrounding kingdoms passed.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And David the king saith to all the assembly, `Solomon my son -- the one on whom God hath fixed -- [is] young and tender, and the work [is] great, for not for man is the palace, but for Jehovah God;
2 and with all my power I have prepared for the house of my God, the gold for [things of] gold, and the silver for [those of] silver, and the brass for [those of] brass, the iron for [those of] iron, and the wood for [those of] wood, shoham stones, and settings, and stones of painting and of diverse colours, and all [kinds of] precious stone, and stones of white marble, in abundance.
3 `And again, because of my delighting in the house of my God, the substance I have -- a peculiar treasure of gold and silver -- I have given for the house of my God, even over and above all I have prepared for the house of the sanctuary:
4 three thousand talents of gold, of the gold of Ophir, and seven thousand talents of refined silver, to overlay the walls of the houses,
5 even gold for [things of] gold, and silver for [those of] silver, and for all the work by the hand of artificers; and who [is] he that is offering willingly to consecrate his hand to-day to Jehovah?'
6 And the heads of the fathers, and the heads of the tribes of Israel, and the heads of the thousands, and of the hundreds, even to the heads of the work of the king, offer willingly.
7 And they give for the service of the house of God, of gold -- talents five thousand, and drams a myriad; and of silver -- talents ten thousand, and of brass -- a myriad and eight thousand talents; and of iron -- a hundred thousand talents;
8 and he with whom stones are found hath given to the treasury of the house of Jehovah, by the hand of Jehiel the Gershonite.
9 And the people rejoice because of their offering willingly, for with a perfect heart they have offered willingly to Jehovah; and also David the king hath rejoiced -- great joy.
10 And David blesseth Jehovah before the eyes of all the assembly, and David saith, `Blessed [art] Thou, Jehovah, God of Israel our father, from age even unto age.
11 To Thee, O Jehovah, [is] the greatness, and the might, and the beauty, and the victory, and the honour, because of all in the heavens and in the earth; to Thee, O Jehovah, [is] the kingdom, and he who is lifting up himself over all for head;
12 and the riches, and the honour [are] from before Thee, and Thou art ruling over all, and in Thy hand [is] power and might, and in Thy hand, to make great, and to give strength to all.
13 `And now, our God, we are giving thanks to Thee, and giving praise to Thy beauteous name;
14 yea, because, who [am] I, and who [are] my people, that we retain power to offer thus willingly? but of Thee [is] the whole, and out of Thy hand we have given to Thee;
15 for sojourners we [are] before Thee, and settlers, like all our fathers; as a shadow [are] our days on the land, and there is none abiding.
16 `O Jehovah our God, all this store that we have prepared to build to Thee a house, for Thy holy name, [is] out of Thy hand, and of Thee [is] the whole.
17 `And I have known, my God, that Thou art trying the heart, and uprightness dost desire; I, in the uprightness of my heart, have willingly offered all these: and now, Thy people who are found here I have seen with joy to offer willingly to Thee.
18 `O Jehovah, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, our fathers, keep this to the age for the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of Thy people, and prepare their heart unto Thee;
19 and to Solomon my son give a perfect heart, to keep Thy commands, Thy testimonies, and Thy statutes, and to do the whole, even to build the palace [for] which I have prepared.'
20 And David saith to all the assembly, `Bless, I pray you, Jehovah your God;' and all the assembly bless Jehovah, God of their fathers, and bow and do obeisance to Jehovah, and to the king.
21 And they sacrifice to Jehovah sacrifices, and cause to ascend burnt-offerings to Jehovah on the morrow of that day, bullocks a thousand, rams a thousand, lambs a thousand, and their oblations, even sacrifices in abundance, for all Israel.
22 And they eat and drink before Jehovah on that day with great joy, and cause Solomon son of David to reign a second time, and anoint [him] before Jehovah for leader, and Zadok for priest.
23 And Solomon sitteth on the throne of Jehovah for king instead of David his father, and prospereth, and all Israel hearken unto him,
24 and all the heads, and the mighty men, and also all the sons of king David have given a hand under Solomon the king;
25 and Jehovah maketh Solomon exceedingly great before the eyes of all Israel, and putteth upon him the honour of the kingdom that hath not been on any king over Israel before him.
26 And David son of Jesse hath reigned over all Israel,
27 and the days that he hath reigned over Israel [are] forty years; in Hebron he reigned seven years, and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three;
28 and he dieth in a good old age, satisfied with days, riches, and honour, and reign doth Solomon his son in his stead.
29 And the matters of David the king, the first and the last, lo, they are written beside the matters of Samuel the seer, and beside the matters of Nathan the prophet, and beside the matters of Gad the seer,
30 with all his reign, and his might, and the times that went over him, and over Israel, and over all kingdoms of the lands.
This is a real name, as my avatar is of in real life. Ludwig is the German version of my baptismal name --- the original Hungarian is "Lajos", four of that five letters is mispronounced by all English speakers but the L. The "m" is the initial of my family name; only two of its eight character would be correctly pronounceable here.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
LittleNipper wrote: I believe that you have rejected the Lord and hate Him.
I handle that entity the same way as Santa and Easter Bunny. Or Flying Spaghetti Monster, if you know better that other omnipotent thing.
LittleNipper wrote: ---- and one you apparently do not comprehend.
Hehehe.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
huckelberry wrote:“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32
The JofD is well describing the thoughts of the leaders of the early church --- same line as JS imagined.
Not a wonder, its citations disappeared from conference talks. Up to the 80s and 90s, there were a lot. The Hungarian 1991 version of D&C lists "JofD" among the abbreviations used. The 2005 version doesn't...
You may be assured that I did not intend to recommend the sentiment but view it as a lurking danger which forethought is needed to avoid.