Bible verse by verse

[_huckelberry]

What is right and wrong and how does a person recognize it? If we are sinful by nature do we have any ability to recognize right and wrong? I think it is clear the Bible says we do have the ablitiy so your dodge about sinful nature will not allow you to say that either you or Ludwigam is incapable of recognizing right and wrong . So... what is the difference?

I believe the Bible is true and that what the Bible has to say concerning right and wrong is absolute. Ludwigam does not seem to believe the Bible is true or absolute. I do not dictate what is right or wrong. I believe the Bible presents exactly what God expects, and is clear that man is unable to keep His laws. God sent Christ to become sin and pay for the transgressions of those who acknowledge the sovereignty of the LORD Jesus Christ to forgive sin, and their own shortcomings ----- seeking forgiveness through Christ alone. Ludwigam time and again says that the Bible is nothing but the work of a lot of backward primitive men. In that Ludwigam is in direct opposition to what I believe, and more importantly ---- to what God has done and is capable of accomplishing.

NIpper, It sounds like you are proud of your belief and think it is better than Ludwigm's . ok. But that does not answer the question of what is the difference between good and evil or how do you recognize right and wrong. I may believe the Bible helps people understand evil but people have been puzzled confused arguing and fighting over what its rules for a number of issues for centuries . Sometimes people have wondered if the Bible makes it more difficult to recognize evil. Think of Luther who was a serious student of the Bible discussing how we should treat Jews.

[_LittleNipper]

I believe the Bible is true and that what the Bible has to say concerning right and wrong is absolute. Ludwigam does not seem to believe the Bible is true or absolute. I do not dictate what is right or wrong. I believe the Bible presents exactly what God expects, and is clear that man is unable to keep His laws. God sent Christ to become sin and pay for the transgressions of those who acknowledge the sovereignty of the LORD Jesus Christ to forgive sin, and their own shortcomings ----- seeking forgiveness through Christ alone. Ludwigam time and again says that the Bible is nothing but the work of a lot of backward primitive men. In that Ludwigam is in direct opposition to what I believe, and more importantly ---- to what God has done and is capable of accomplishing.

NIpper, It sounds like you are proud of your belief and think it is better than Ludwigm's . ok. But that does not answer the question of what is the difference between good and evil or how do you recognize right and wrong. I may believe the Bible helps people understand evil but people have been puzzled confused arguing and fighting over what its rules for a number of issues for centuries . Sometimes people have wondered if the Bible makes it more difficult to recognize evil. Think of Luther who was a serious student of the Bible discussing how we should treat Jews.

I am not proud with regard to my belief in Christ, because I now know that Christ clearly is the author of my salvation and not I. I still make mistakes but they are forgiven. Good is doing only what God wants exactly as God wishes it done. And evil is doing want you want without regard for God. Clearly Martin Luther, though a fervent Christian made mistakes; however, all his mistakes were forgiven him. But those that acted on those mistakes who never came to a saving knowledge of Christ ----- but only followed LUTHER and LUTHER's teaching without acknowledging their own sin and need of the Savior were in error. Such sins are clearly compounded and produce destruction.

[_ludwigm]

I still make mistakes but they are forgiven.

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Good is doing only what God wants exactly as God wishes it done.

Who did say to you what does god want?
URL, in real life, site, page, anything please...

Clearly Martin Luther, though a fervent Christian made mistakes; however, all his mistakes were forgiven him.

Fortunately, we have you, without mistakes.

But those that acted on those mistakes who never came to a saving knowledge of Christ ----- but only followed LUTHER and LUTHER's teaching without acknowledging their own sin and need of the Savior were in error. Such sins are clearly compounded and produce destruction.

I have appreciation problems with these sentences. I am Hungarian, you know...

[_Bret Ripley]

I believe ... what the Bible has to say concerning right and wrong is absolute.

I doubt that is true. Do you believe the following verses to be absolutely true?

Deuteronomy 23:1 No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.

Deuteronomy 17:12 Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14 As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Leviticus 25:44-46 However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.

Exodus 21:20-21 When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

Are these verses absolutely true? Or maybe you consider them superseded by other even more absolutely true verses?

[_ludwigm]

I believe ... what the Bible has to say concerning right and wrong is absolute.

I doubt that is true. Do you believe the following verses to be absolutely true?

Deuteronomy 23:1 No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

Up to now, I can enter the assembly of the Lord. My photos about it are disabled by Shades. Sorry folks, they are (would be) pompous.

I believe ... what the Bible has to say concerning right and wrong is absolute.

I doubt that is true. Do you believe the following verses to be absolutely true? Deuteronomy 25:11-12 If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.

I will ask my wife - as it is were a topic of conference talk.
Up to now, she likes my genitals. Any change of this status will be declared here.

[_huckelberry]

I am not proud with regard to my belief in Christ, because I now know that Christ clearly is the author of my salvation and not I. I still make mistakes but they are forgiven. Good is doing only what God wants exactly as God wishes it done. And evil is doing want you want without regard for God. Clearly Martin Luther, though a fervent Christian made mistakes; however, all his mistakes were forgiven him. But those that acted on those mistakes who never came to a saving knowledge of Christ ----- but only followed LUTHER and LUTHER's teaching without acknowledging their own sin and need of the Savior were in error. Such sins are clearly compounded and produce destruction.

LittleNipper, I should not have used proud. Your explanation about proud is fine to my mind however. Beyond that I am left wondering if God gives you instructions on all the issues the rest of the world is puzzled by. I understand that there is forgiveness for being wrong in a decision but still we rely on more than a guess. Do we not think about what principals distinguish good from evil? If we do that then the chances of our decisions converging with Gods desires would be much better than if we sit and saying that I cannot trust my thoughts. If we do that we end up relying on social habit or accident. I God instructed us to think about what is good and to seek that.

In terrestial forum DarkHelmet asked a question which fits here. I hope he will not mind my transporting a portion of his post here.
From Darkhelmet.........When has the Mormon god spoken on the big issues?........
"I heard part of Eyring's talk about how mankind can't come up with solutions to big issues on their own and must rely on God to provide answers, or something like that. He was specifically speaking about revelations. Of course he had no specific examples, probably because there aren't any. Nations go to war over big issues, and the Mormon God is typically silent. When has God provided answers?

The biggest moral issue in the first half of the 19th century was slavery. The country was torn apart by this issue, and it led to the bloodiest war in US history. More Americans died in the Civil War than in all other wars combined. It seems that the issue of slavery was the type of issue that God would provide an answer to. . It was the biggest issue in the country at the time, and probably the biggest moral issue in US history, and God was silent.

War seems like a pretty big issue. We've had lots of wars. What did God reveal during times of hostilities and war? Should the saints raise up arms and join the fight, or bury their weapons and pray for peace? Any specific revelations before WWI or WWII, Vietnam, Korea, etc?

Those are just 2 of the big issues of our time that I can't find any specific revelations on. So when Eyring says we must turn to God, not man, for answers we would still be waiting for an answer on slavery, and whether or not to join all the wars that have occurred. Apparently we really do need to rely on the wisdom of man to make the tough decisions and find answers to the tough questions."
.......

I edited the comments a little to make them applicable to all Biblical religion not just the Mormon version. I think it is a fundamental question any person of faith must grapple with.

[_huckelberry]

But those that acted on those mistakes who never came to a saving knowledge of Christ ----- but only followed LUTHER and LUTHER's teaching without acknowledging their own sin and need of the Savior were in error. Such sins are clearly compounded and produce destruction.

I have appreciation problems with these sentences. I am Hungarian, you know...

Ludwigm, I may be curious but I am puzzled by the "you know" in your comment.I miss your intended meaning entirely. I am embarrassed a bit but when it comes to Hungary ,I do not know,is a better description. Your past comments indicate you have an awareness of the shortcomings of American understanding of your cultural view point. It is true. For me Hungary is a little known place caught between larger historical forces. I might think of Mongol invasion, expansion of Ottoman empire, Protestant reformation and 30 year war, Hapsburg power, Germany and Russia fighting a couple world wars and USSR and the west with Hungary caught in between. I would suspect you see the word Hungarian with a whole different set of associations, or at least with many other important additional ones from your vantage point.

[_ludwigm]

As it is offtopic here, I did open a new thread. Please see there...

[_LittleNipper]

I am not proud with regard to my belief in Christ, because I now know that Christ clearly is the author of my salvation and not I. I still make mistakes but they are forgiven. Good is doing only what God wants exactly as God wishes it done. And evil is doing want you want without regard for God. Clearly Martin Luther, though a fervent Christian made mistakes; however, all his mistakes were forgiven him. But those that acted on those mistakes who never came to a saving knowledge of Christ ----- but only followed LUTHER and LUTHER's teaching without acknowledging their own sin and need of the Savior were in error. Such sins are clearly compounded and produce destruction.

LittleNipper, I should not have used proud. Your explanation about proud is fine to my mind however. Beyond that I am left wondering if God gives you instructions on all the issues the rest of the world is puzzled by. I understand that there is forgiveness for being wrong in a decision but still we rely on more than a guess. Do we not think about what principals distinguish good from evil? If we do that then the chances of our decisions converging with Gods desires would be much better than if we sit and saying that I cannot trust my thoughts. If we do that we end up relying on social habit or accident. I God instructed us to think about what is good and to seek that.

In terrestial forum DarkHelmet asked a question which fits here. I hope he will not mind my transporting a portion of his post here.
From Darkhelmet.........When has the Mormon god spoken on the big issues?........
"I heard part of Eyring's talk about how mankind can't come up with solutions to big issues on their own and must rely on God to provide answers, or something like that. He was specifically speaking about revelations. Of course he had no specific examples, probably because there aren't any. Nations go to war over big issues, and the Mormon God is typically silent. When has God provided answers?

The biggest moral issue in the first half of the 19th century was slavery. The country was torn apart by this issue, and it led to the bloodiest war in US history. More Americans died in the Civil War than in all other wars combined. It seems that the issue of slavery was the type of issue that God would provide an answer to. . It was the biggest issue in the country at the time, and probably the biggest moral issue in US history, and God was silent.

War seems like a pretty big issue. We've had lots of wars. What did God reveal during times of hostilities and war? Should the saints raise up arms and join the fight, or bury their weapons and pray for peace? Any specific revelations before WWI or WWII, Vietnam, Korea, etc?

Those are just 2 of the big issues of our time that I can't find any specific revelations on. So when Eyring says we must turn to God, not man, for answers we would still be waiting for an answer on slavery, and whether or not to join all the wars that have occurred. Apparently we really do need to rely on the wisdom of man to make the tough decisions and find answers to the tough questions."
.......

I edited the comments a little to make them applicable to all Biblical religion not just the Mormon version. I think it is a fundamental question any person of faith must grapple with.

I believe that I can come to the Lord about anything. Say, I need a car. The Lord will work through problems. It may not turn out to be a Rolls Royce; however, God does provide for a Christian's needs in a special way. Was God silent during the Civil War?

It seems to me God Himself allowed the Civil War to display the brutality of slavery to those unwilling to part with their ideology. While the war progressed as a battle over "State's Rights," the South seemed to be winning the fight. However, as the focus shifted to freeing the slaves, the tide began to turn. And it does seem that Abraham Lincoln became a "Born Again" believer as a direct result of the Civil War. The reality is that Mary Todd Lincoln was a Southerner, and yet she was indeed married to the President who exacerbated the split. Even Lincoln's assassination was total irony and actually brought greater hardship to the defeated South. In all this, it is a fact that Methodists and other Christian religious groups migrated to non-slave states from the South and or assisted in the "Underground Railroad." So God dealt with the slavery issue through individuals. The Civil War was ultimately the result of men unjustly enslaving other men.

World War I and II were both the result of greed and a lust for power. The end result was war. But God does seem to enlist Christians to do things that are heroic and unpopular to end conflicts or bring about change. Man's decisions WITHOUT the invocation of God and humble soul searching are always disasters. Example: Doing the wrong thing, the wrong way, at the wrong time, with the wrong people, for the wrong ideals.

An ancient people were expelled from the region Israel came to occupy, as a DIRECT RESULT of their sin. Israel was eventually dispersed as a DIRECT RESULT of their sin. Christians who study their Bible seem to get this point. And people who believe that man will figure it out, always seem to miss the mark... I am very concerned because I believe that America is headed for what could eventually be another Civil War. And the cause will include the redefining of what is a viable human and what is human. And now we are redefining what marriage is about. Again, the land will eventually expel unrighteousness, but this will invariably make life for true believers very uncomfortable for a time ---- once again.

I do not know if this answers your question directly; however, Christians should see that there has always been a fight between good and evil. Some who are not Christian laugh at what is often referred to as a "Conspiracy Theory." But the reality is that unless one is entirely blind, one should see that certain patterns emerge over and over as a result of selfish pride and greed. If there is no God, then outcomes and the reasons for conflict should be random and without pattern. However, they are NOT when one does the investigation. This is the main reason people study HISTORY ---- in a human attempt not to repeat the mistakes of the past................................

[_LittleNipper]

2 Chronicles 1:1-17 Solomon took a firm grip in the control of his kingdom. God was with him and gave him much help. Solomon addressed all Israel including the commanders and captains, the judges, every leader, and all the heads of families. Solomon and this entire company went to worship at Gibeon ---- where the Tent of Meeting of God was assembled through Moses. The ark of God was in Jerusalem. David had brought it up from Kiriath Jearim, prepared a special place for it, and pitched a tent for it.

The Bronze Altar that Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, had made was in Gibeon, in place before the Tabernacle of God; and that is where Solomon and the congregation gathered to pray. Solomon worshiped God at the Bronze Altar in front of the Tent of Meeting; he sacrificed a thousand Whole-Burnt-Offerings on it.

That night God appeared to Solomon. God said, “What do you want from me? Ask.” Solomon answered, “Give me wisdom and knowledge as I come and go among this people—for who on his own is capable of leading these, your glorious people?”

God answered Solomon, “This is what has come out of your heart: You didn’t grasp for money, wealth, fame, and the doom of your enemies; you didn’t even ask for a long life. You asked for wisdom and knowledge so you could correctly govern my people over whom I’ve made you king. Because of this, you get what you asked for—wisdom and knowledge. And I’m presenting you the rest as a bonus—money, wealth, and fame beyond anything the kings before or after you had or will have.”

Solomon left the worship center at Gibeon and the Tent of Meeting and went to Jerusalem. He set to work as king of Israel. Solomon collected 1400 chariots and 1200 horses. He stabled them in the special chariot-cities as well as in Jerusalem. The king made silver and gold as mere rocks, and cedar as common as the fig trees in the lowland hills. His horses were brought in from Egypt and Cilicia, specially acquired by the king’s agents. Chariots from Egypt went for 15 pounds of silver and a horse for about 3 and 3/4 of a pound of silver. Solomon carried on a brisk horse-trading business with the Hittite and Aramean royal houses.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And strengthen himself doth Solomon son of David over his kingdom, and Jehovah his God [is] with him, and maketh him exceedingly great.

2 And Solomon saith to all Israel, to heads of the thousands, and of the hundreds, and to judges, and to every honourable one of all Israel, heads of the fathers,

3 and they go -- Solomon, and all the assembly with him -- to the high place that [is] in Gibeon, for there hath been God's tent of meeting, that Moses, servant of Jehovah, made in the wilderness,

4 but the ark of God had David brought up from Kirjath-Jearim, when David prepared for it, for he stretched out for it a tent in Jerusalem;

5 and the altar of brass that Bezaleel son of Uri, son of Hur made, he put before the tabernacle of Jehovah; and Solomon and the assembly seek to it.

6 And Solomon goeth up thither, on the altar of brass, before Jehovah, that [is] at the tent of meeting, and causeth to ascend upon it a thousand burnt-offerings.

7 In that night hath God appeared to Solomon, and saith to him, `Ask -- what do I give to thee?'

8 And Solomon saith to God, `Thou hast done with David my father great kindness, and hast caused me to reign in his stead.

9 Now, O Jehovah God, is Thy word with David my father stedfast, for Thou hast caused me to reign over a people numerous as the dust of the earth;

10 now, wisdom and knowledge give to me, and I go out before this people, and I come in, for who doth judge this Thy great people?'

11 And God saith to Solomon, `Because that this hath been with thy heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, and honour, and the life of those hating thee, and also many days hast not asked, and dost ask for thyself wisdom and knowledge, so that thou dost judge My people over which I have caused thee to reign --

12 the wisdom and the knowledge is given to thee, and riches and wealth and honour I give to thee, that there hath not been so to the kings who [are] before thee, and after thee it is not so.'

13 And Solomon cometh in [from] the high place that [is] in Gibeon to Jerusalem, from before the tent of meeting, and reigneth over Israel,

14 and Solomon gathereth chariots and horsemen, and he hath a thousand and four hundred chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, and he placeth them in the cities of the chariots, and with the king in Jerusalem.

15 And the king maketh the silver and the gold in Jerusalem as stones, and the cedars he made as sycamores that [are] in the low country, for abundance.

16 And the source of the horses that [are] to Solomon [is] from Egypt and from Keva; merchants of the king from Keva take at a price,

17 and they come up, and bring out from Egypt a chariot for six hundred silverlings, and a horse for fifty and a hundred, and so for all the kings of the Hittites, and the kings of Aram -- by their hand they bring out.