Bible verse by verse

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_The Erotic Apologist
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _The Erotic Apologist »

LittleNipper wrote:New International Version...English Standard Version...New American Standard Bible...King James Bible...Holman Christian Standard Bible...NET Bible...GOD'S WORD® Translation...
First of all, I think it's hilarious that the "GOD'S WORD®" translation needs to have a registered trademark symbol next to it. I mean, are we supposed to believe "GOD" himself registered this translation at the National Trademark Office? That's just too funny!

Second of all, I can't help but notice that these all happen to be ENGLISH translations--wouldn't it be better to refer to the ancient texts from which they're (supposedly) derived? Surely someone as knowledgeable as Nipper knows how to read New Testament Greek. What's that? He doesn't? Sigh...
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_maklelan
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _maklelan »

LittleNipper wrote:Deut 32:8 You pick the one that is different I see no real problem

New International Version
sons of Israel.

English Standard Version
sons of God.


New American Standard Bible
sons of Israel.

King James Bible
children of Israel.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
people of Israel.

International Standard Version
children of God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
sons of Israel.

Jubilee Bible 2000
sons of Israel.

King James 2000 Bible
children of Israel.

American King James Version
children of Israel.

American Standard Version
children of Israel.

Douay-Rheims Bible
children of Israel.

Darby Bible Translation
children of Israel.

English Revised Version
children of Israel.

Webster's Bible Translation
children of Israel.

World English Bible
children of Israel.

Young's Literal Translation
sons of Israel.


Only one translation actually uses the original text. The Septuagint renders "angels of God," which is what is responsible for the tradition reflected in Daniel 10 that each nation had a guardian angel responsible for it. The Septuagint frequently interprets the Hebrew בני אלהים, "sons of God" as "angels," though, and a lot of scholars wondered if the Hebrew originally read "sons of God." The Dead Sea Scroll fragment 4QDeut-q proved exactly that. It showed the Hebrew originally had Elyon dividing up the nations not according to the number of the sons of Israel (who would not exist for centuries), but according to the number of God's offspring. This fits with the broader Northwest Semitic notion of each nation having its own patron deity, which itself is repeated numerous times throughout the Hebrew Bible. According to Deut 32:8–9, Elyon gave Israel to YHWH as his inheritance. Numerous texts in the Hebrew Bible reflect that understanding of Israel as YHWH's inheritance, but the most significant aspect is that that means YHWH was a separate deity from Elyon. Elyon was YHWH's father. Israel's deity was originally limited to the nation of Israel, which is why David complained that Saul's chasing him out of Israel in effect forced him to worship other gods. It's why Naaman said he would bring Israelite earth back to Syria with him so he could worship YHWH, and why he insisted there was no God in all the earth except in Israel. It's why the psalmist complained that they could not praise YHWH outside of the land of Israel. It's repeated throughout the Hebrew Bible. YHWH was not conceptualized as a god over any other nations until the exile, when the author of Psalm 82 had him rhetorically depose the gods of the nations and called on YHWH to stand up and inherit all the nations (reflecting the understanding from Deut 32:8–9 of the nations as the inheritances given to the gods). Obviously most translations are not going to like acknowledging that Elyon had a bunch of gods as children that he then established over the different nations as their patron deities, but that's what the original version shows. You see no problem because you don't know much about the Bible and because you refuse to learn anything about it that complicates your dogmatism.
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_maklelan
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _maklelan »

LittleNipper wrote:Sorry, but you are the liar. You lie to your self concerning the truthfulness of your own Mormon beliefs. If you were half as diligent concerning Mormonism as you were trying to discredit real Christianity, you couldn't possibly remain a Mormon. Prop up the Book of Mormon, but don't try to discredit the true interpretation of the Bible in order to attempt to uplift yourself.


That's out of bounds for this forum, and you're way off base.
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_maklelan
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _maklelan »

LittleNipper wrote:Deut 32:43 (What don't you understand? What confuses you?)


Nothing confuses me here, LN. You're the one with the lack of knowledge.

LittleNipper wrote:New International Version
Rejoice, you nations, with his people, for he will avenge the blood of his servants; he will take vengeance on his enemies and make atonement for his land and people.

English Standard Version
“Rejoice with him, O heavens; bow down to him, all gods, for he avenges the blood of his children and takes vengeance on his adversaries. He repays those who hate him and cleanses his people’s land.”

New American Standard Bible
"Rejoice, O nations, with His people; For He will avenge the blood of His servants, And will render vengeance on His adversaries, And will atone for His land and His people."

King James Bible
Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Rejoice, you nations, concerning His people, for He will avenge the blood of His servants. He will take vengeance on His adversaries; He will purify His land and His people.

International Standard Version
"Sing for joy, nations! Sing for joy, people who belong to him! For he'll avenge the blood of his servants, turn on his adversary, and cleanse both his land and his people."

NET Bible
Cry out, O nations, with his people, for he will avenge his servants' blood; he will take vengeance against his enemies, and make atonement for his land and people.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Joyfully sing with the LORD's people, you nations, because he will take revenge for the death of his servants. He will get even with his enemies and make peace for his people's land.?and[ his people.">]

Jubilee Bible 2000
Rejoice, O ye Gentiles, with his people, for he will avenge the blood of his slaves and will render vengeance to his enemies and will reconcile his land, to his people.

King James 2000 Bible
Rejoice, O you nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

American King James Version
Rejoice, O you nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful to his land, and to his people.

American Standard Version
Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: For he will avenge the blood of his servants, And will render vengeance to his adversaries, And will make expiation for his land, for his people.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Praise his people, ye nations, for he will revenge the blood of his servants: and will render vengeance to their enemies, and he will be merciful to the land of his people.

Darby Bible Translation
Shout for joy, ye nations, with his people, For he avengeth the blood of his servants, And rendereth vengeance to his enemies, And maketh atonement for his land, for his people.

English Revised Version
Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: For he will avenge the blood of his servants, And will render vengeance to his adversaries, And will make expiation for his land, for his people.

Webster's Bible Translation
Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful to his land, and to his people.

World English Bible
Rejoice, you nations, [with] his people, for he will avenge the blood of his servants. He will render vengeance to his adversaries, And will make expiation for his land, for his people.

Young's Literal Translation
Sing ye nations -- with his people, For the blood of His servants He avengeth, And vengeance He turneth back on His adversaries, And hath pardoned His land -- His people.'


Again, only one translation actually uses the original text. I discuss this in more depth here, but basically, later editors changed the text because they were uncomfortable with all these references to other gods. Obviously you and most modern Bible translators are also just as uncomfortable with what the Bible says, so they're happy to change it to something they like better.
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_maklelan
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _maklelan »

LittleNipper wrote:2 Samuel 21:19 (YLT) | In Context | Whole Chapter

19 And the battle is again in Gob with the Philistines, and Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim, the Beth-Lehemite, smiteth [a brother of] Goliath the Gittite, and the wood of his spear [is] like a beam of weavers.


You'll notice the "a brother of" is not actually in the Hebrew. Y'see, the original tradition has Elhanan kill Goliath. Later David appropriated that hero tradition. Somebody forgot to edit the original version out, though, so now we have both versions in the Bible. Your translation here really doesn't want to acknowledge that, though, so it just alters what the Bible actually says so that it fits what the translator thinks the Bible should be. You're obviously more than happy to agree with him that if the Bible says something we don't like, we can just change it.
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_maklelan
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _maklelan »

LittleNipper wrote:This is a very logical explanation: Pulpit Commentary


No, it's a presuppositional explanation that tries to rationalize away the demonstrable fact that the Bible contradicts itself.

LittleNipper wrote:Verse 19. - Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, a Beth-lehemite, slew Goliath the Gittite. The words "the brother of" are inserted by the Authorized Version in order to bring this place into verbal agreement with 1 Chronicles 20:5, where we read that "Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite."


And this text in Chronicles is corrupted. Y'see, in Hebrew, "the Bethlehemite" looks an awful lot like "Lahmi the brother of." Since the original text said that Elhanan slew Goliath, and since the editors of Chronicles already had another portion of Samuel in front of them that said David slew Goliath, they needed to figure out how to make the texts agree. They found out they could change "the Bethlehemite" to "Lahmi the brother of" without doing much damage at all to the text. This made it seem like they had fixed the problem, but "Lahmi," meaning "My Bread" is a nonsensical name that doesn't fit any ancient naming convention. It's also Semitic, which is not a name a Philistine would give to their children. Lastly, we know from other texts that Jair was a Bethlehemite, so the other text in Samuel is most definitely original. This text in Chronicles has been manipulated to agree with the David tradition. Originally, however, David was not the one who killed Goliath. Elhanan was.

LittleNipper wrote:The Jewish Targum had the same reading as that still found in the text, but regards Elhanan, "God is gracious," as another name for David, and, instead of Jair or Jaare, reads Jesse. Its translation is as follows: "And David the son of Jesse, the weaver of veils for the sanctuary, who was of Bethlehem, slew Goliath the Gittite."


And that's just a laughable attempt to take a demonstrable contradiction and make it not a contradiction.

LittleNipper wrote:Possibly the Authorized Version is right in concluding that the present text is a corruption of that in 1 Chronicles 20:5. For, first, the repetition of oregim, "weavers," is suspicious, the Hebrew being, not "weaver's beam," but the plural "weavers' beam," menor oregim. Next, Jaare is a transposition of the letters of Jair (in the Hebrew) made probably in order that the compound Jaare-oregim may obey the rules of Hebrew grammar. More important is it to notice that Lahmi is part of the word "Bethlehemite" (Hebrew, Beth-hallahmi), and might thus easily suggest to the eye of a scribe the completion of so well known a word. We must add that among the thirty Gibborim is "Elhanan the son of Dodo of Bethlehem." Whoever slew Goliath's brother would certainly attain to high rank among the heroes, but if the name Jair is right, the Elhanan there spoken of is not the person who slew Lahmi.


More presuppositional attempts to weasel out of having to admit that the biblical authors manipulated the texts because they too could just not accept that the Bible contradicted itself.

LittleNipper wrote:I believe that Goliath had a brother or brothers and that they were all big boys is the logical explanation. There was more than one giant and Goliath became the name meaning huge.


You can believe whatever makes you happy, but your belief is demonstrably wrong and illustrates just how much someone has to plug their ears and cover their eyes and shout "La, la, la! I can't hear you!" when the Bible clearly contradicts itself.
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_LittleNipper
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _LittleNipper »

maklelan wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:This is a very logical explanation: Pulpit Commentary


No, it's a presuppositional explanation that tries to rationalize away the demonstrable fact that the Bible contradicts itself.

LittleNipper wrote:Verse 19. - Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, a Beth-lehemite, slew Goliath the Gittite. The words "the brother of" are inserted by the Authorized Version in order to bring this place into verbal agreement with 1 Chronicles 20:5, where we read that "Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite."


And this text in Chronicles is corrupted. Y'see, in Hebrew, "the Bethlehemite" looks an awful lot like "Lahmi the brother of." Since the original text said that Elhanan slew Goliath, and since the editors of Chronicles already had another portion of Samuel in front of them that said David slew Goliath, they needed to figure out how to make the texts agree. They found out they could change "the Bethlehemite" to "Lahmi the brother of" without doing much damage at all to the text. This made it seem like they had fixed the problem, but "Lahmi," meaning "My Bread" is a nonsensical name that doesn't fit any ancient naming convention. It's also Semitic, which is not a name a Philistine would give to their children. Lastly, we know from other texts that Jair was a Bethlehemite, so the other text in Samuel is most definitely original. This text in Chronicles has been manipulated to agree with the David tradition. Originally, however, David was not the one who killed Goliath. Elhanan was.

LittleNipper wrote:The Jewish Targum had the same reading as that still found in the text, but regards Elhanan, "God is gracious," as another name for David, and, instead of Jair or Jaare, reads Jesse. Its translation is as follows: "And David the son of Jesse, the weaver of veils for the sanctuary, who was of Bethlehem, slew Goliath the Gittite."


And that's just a laughable attempt to take a demonstrable contradiction and make it not a contradiction.

LittleNipper wrote:Possibly the Authorized Version is right in concluding that the present text is a corruption of that in 1 Chronicles 20:5. For, first, the repetition of oregim, "weavers," is suspicious, the Hebrew being, not "weaver's beam," but the plural "weavers' beam," menor oregim. Next, Jaare is a transposition of the letters of Jair (in the Hebrew) made probably in order that the compound Jaare-oregim may obey the rules of Hebrew grammar. More important is it to notice that Lahmi is part of the word "Bethlehemite" (Hebrew, Beth-hallahmi), and might thus easily suggest to the eye of a scribe the completion of so well known a word. We must add that among the thirty Gibborim is "Elhanan the son of Dodo of Bethlehem." Whoever slew Goliath's brother would certainly attain to high rank among the heroes, but if the name Jair is right, the Elhanan there spoken of is not the person who slew Lahmi.


More presuppositional attempts to weasel out of having to admit that the biblical authors manipulated the texts because they too could just not accept that the Bible contradicted itself.

LittleNipper wrote:I believe that Goliath had a brother or brothers and that they were all big boys is the logical explanation. There was more than one giant and Goliath became the name meaning huge.


You can believe whatever makes you happy, but your belief is demonstrably wrong and illustrates just how much someone has to plug their ears and cover their eyes and shout "La, la, la! I can't hear you!" when the Bible clearly contradicts itself.

The Lord killed Goliath through David a shepherd boy. There was more than one giant man, and they were related. That is what I believe and you are free to accept the Book of Mormon.
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _LittleNipper »

maklelan wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:Sorry, but you are the liar. You lie to your self concerning the truthfulness of your own Mormon beliefs. If you were half as diligent concerning Mormonism as you were trying to discredit real Christianity, you couldn't possibly remain a Mormon. Prop up the Book of Mormon, but don't try to discredit the true interpretation of the Bible in order to attempt to uplift yourself.


That's out of bounds for this forum, and you're way off base.

Saying, "That's a flagrant lie." must be way off base also, or are there two sets of rules, one for you and one for Christians.
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _The Erotic Apologist »

LittleNipper wrote:Saying, "That's a flagrant lie." must be way off base also, or are there two sets of rules, one for you and one for Christians.

Instead of calling him names you might consider showing us how your reading of the original Greek and Hebrew better satisfies the author's intent.
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _LittleNipper »

The Erotic Apologist wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:Saying, "That's a flagrant lie." must be way off base also, or are there two sets of rules, one for you and one for Christians.

Instead of calling him names you might consider showing us how your reading of the original Greek and Hebrew better satisfies the author's intent.

And you should have told Marklelan that when he made his remark. Now if you are really interested in the issue surrounding who killed Goliath you may wish to consider this: http://www.apologeticspress.org/apconte ... rticle=752
Last edited by Guest on Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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