Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

[_Tobin]

Not that well. They existed well before 2200 BC, and well after. If you look at other evidences, they don't match at all. Their eventual decline was not due to war, but environmental changes that did not allow for large groups of farmers

That is pure speculation. You have no idea why they abandoned their cities and you don't know that the Olmec civilization was earlier than 2500/2200 BC - most estimates use the range 1500BC to 400BC.

[_Tobin]

Your problem here again is that this would easily leave some evidence, which we don't see. The Nephites were supposed to last a thousands years and in the last half century had large numbers. Again we would expect to see some evidence. We don't, and this is why the text is still anachronistic with iron and steel.

Your math is faulty. We are talking about a civilization that arose from a small number of settlers in a pre-industrial era without modern medicine and modern agriculture. What population growth rates are you supposing here? Have you looked at charts of world popluation growth rates pre-industrial? I think this is another instance of you wildly exaggerating things again.

[_Tobin]

Any mining was not done for smelting purposes.

And you can state this definitively how?

It is all to late for the Book of Mormon. We are talking about high heat technology. Of course they would have had some understanding, considering they were melting softer metals(although this came later then Book of Mormon times to this area).

And you can state this definitively how? There are plenty of examples of this material. When they developed bronze smelting and metalworking is only a matter of pure speculation.

Not really. They did not do any smelting to get these things. Meteorite iron was a small source. Polisheing was done to get the mirrors.

Yes, because meteorite iron naturally arrives in small round beads and as flattened, shaped and polished mirrors. In fact, I'm waiting for a meteorite to arrive outside my house carrying a new car right now as we speak.

Incorrect as usual. You don't need to use high heat to make ceramics, but you do to make better quality ones. We don't see this, which is another clue they never had it.

You are right about that. You don't need high heat to make ceramics, but then you need an advanced knowledge of chemistry to do it. Ceramic materials are either formed from a molten mass that solidifies on cooling, and then reformed and matured by the action of heat, or are chemically synthesized at low temperatures using, for example, hydrothermal or sol-gel synthesis. If you are right that they used chemicals to do it, then that is amazing. You should write a paper about that.

The ancient Olmec "Bird Vessel" and bowl, both ceramic and dating to circa 1000 BC as well as other ceramics are produced in kilns capable of exceeding approximately 900°C. The only other prehistoric culture known to have achieved such high temperatures is that of Ancient Egypt.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_art
Oh well, so much for you theory about the advanced chemical knowledge of the Olmecs. Forget the paper. It does seem they knew how to make high temperature kilns after all.

Which the text brings up that they had. You also bring up the Olmec's mining it.

Limited and the text dwells on iron mining exactly where? Again, we are talking New World where iron mines go deep underground.

[_Quasimodo]

Limited and the text dwells on iron mining exactly where? Again, we are talking New World where iron mines go deep underground.

In hate to interject (you guys are having such a great conversation), but I believe that the deep "iron" mines in Mesoamerica were all about ocher (an iron ore) that was used as a paint on pottery, a body paint and a sacred color used in burials. It was never smelted in the Americas to make the metal iron.

It was sacred in many early cultures on all continents because it resembles the color of blood (rust).

[_Tobin]

In hate to interject (you guys are having such a great conversation), but I believe that the deep "iron" mines in Mesoamerica were all about ocher (an iron ore) that was used as a paint on pottery, a body paint and a sacred color used in burials. It was never smelted in the Americas to make the metal iron.

It was sacred in many early cultures on all continents because it resembles the color of blood (rust).

Oh, I don't disagree. But the fact is it was mined to a limited extent. Certainly there was no vast infrastructure of mining needed for an iron age.

However, as I have pointed out, the Olmec did know how to make high heat ceramics even as early as 1000BC. And the technology needed to make ceramics is very applicable to iron working because of the heat needed for that. I don't think anyone here disputes that there was limited iron working as early as 2000 BC elsewhere in the world. And it certainly appears the Olmecs possessed the tools necessary to do so as well here.

[_Quasimodo]

In hate to interject (you guys are having such a great conversation), but I believe that the deep "iron" mines in Mesoamerica were all about ocher (an iron ore) that was used as a paint on pottery, a body paint and a sacred color used in burials. It was never smelted in the Americas to make the metal iron.

It was sacred in many early cultures on all continents because it resembles the color of blood (rust).

Oh, I don't disagree. But the fact is it was mined to a limited extent. Certainly there was no vast infrastructure of mining needed for an iron age.

However, as I have pointed out, the Olmec did know how to make high heat ceramics even as early as 1000BC. And the technology needed to make ceramics is very applicable to iron working because of the heat needed for that. I don't think anyone here disputes that there was limited iron working as early as 2000 BC elsewhere in the world. And it certainly appears the Olmecs possessed the tools necessary to do so as well here.

Sorry, interjecting again. Since there is no evidence of the Olmecs (or any other pre-Columbian culture in the Western hemisphere) making iron, there is no reason to believe that they did. Firing pottery and smelting iron are very different processes.

There have been many royal burials found in situ in Central America. Most contain burial artifacts that include weapons. None are made of iron. Even if the iron had rusted away, the rust would remain in the shape of the original implement. None found.

[_Tobin]

Sorry, interjecting again. Since there is no evidence of the Olmecs (or any other pre-Columbian culture in the Western hemisphere) making iron, there is no reason to believe that they did. Firing pottery and smelting iron are very different processes.

There have been many royal burials found in situ in Central America. Most contain burial artifacts that include weapons. None are made of iron. Even if the iron had rusted away, the rust would remain in the shape of the original implement. None found.

Agreed. However, it has been stated on here that the Olmecs did not possess high heat technology and that is certainly not true. I am also unaware of any Olmec burial sites in the range of 1500BC-600BC ever being found with large caches of weapons. All the burial sites that I am aware of that have been found have included instead offerings of greenstone figures and jewelry and celts (usually arranged in the form for a human being).

[_Quasimodo]

Sorry, interjecting again. Since there is no evidence of the Olmecs (or any other pre-Columbian culture in the Western hemisphere) making iron, there is no reason to believe that they did. Firing pottery and smelting iron are very different processes.

There have been many royal burials found in situ in Central America. Most contain burial artifacts that include weapons. None are made of iron. Even if the iron had rusted away, the rust would remain in the shape of the original implement. None found.

Agreed. However, it has been stated on here that the Olmecs did not possess high heat technology and that is certainly not true. I am also unaware of any Olmec burial sites in the range of 1500BC-600BC ever being found with large caches of weapons. All the burial sites that I am aware of that have been found have included instead offerings of greenstone figures and jewelry and celts (usually arranged in the form for a human being).

Celts count! No rust, though.

[_Tobin]

Celts count! No rust, though.

Celts don't count. They just lie there. And they may have been purely a ceremonial item used in burials. I certainly am unaware of the burial traditions of the Olmecs and it may have been that burying iron weapons (due to the difficulty in crafting them), would have been unthinkable.

[_Themis]

Not that well. They existed well before 2200 BC, and well after. If you look at other evidences, they don't match at all. Their eventual decline was not due to war, but environmental changes that did not allow for large groups of farmers

That is pure speculation. You have no idea why they abandoned their cities and you don't know that the Olmec civilization was earlier than 2500/2200 BC - most estimates use the range 1500BC to 400BC.

Yes we know we the scientific communities does not agree with you it is pure speculation.

Your math is faulty. We are talking about a civilization that arose from a small number of settlers in a pre-industrial era without modern medicine and modern agriculture. What population growth rates are you supposing here? Have you looked at charts of world popluation growth rates pre-industrial? I think this is another instance of you wildly exaggerating things again.

Do you want to go with your assumptions, or what the text actually says. Let me know. :) I do agree that they could not have populated so fast, but then it is another problem of the Book of Mormon.

And you can state this definitively how?

That is what the evidence shows us. If you disagree, then present your evidence.

And you can state this definitively how? There are plenty of examples of this material. When they developed bronze smelting and metalworking is only a matter of pure speculation.

Again we can go with your assumptions, or go with the science.

Yes, because meteorite iron naturally arrives in small round beads and as flattened, shaped and polished mirrors. In fact, I'm waiting for a meteorite to arrive outside my house carrying a new car right now as we speak.

All this does is tell me you know little of the subject. iron is malleable, and can be turned into beads and other products with just hammering, polishing. The mirrors were created by polishing appropriate pieces of iron ore.

You are right about that. You don't need high heat to make ceramics, but then you need an advanced knowledge of chemistry to do it. Ceramic materials are either formed from a molten mass that solidifies on cooling, and then reformed and matured by the action of heat, or are chemically synthesized at low temperatures using, for example, hydrothermal or sol-gel synthesis. If you are right that they used chemicals to do it, then that is amazing. You should write a paper about that.

Then we agree here. No high heat needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_art
Oh well, so much for you theory about the advanced chemical knowledge of the Olmecs. Forget the paper. It does seem they knew how to make high temperature kilns after all.

Thank you for supporting what I was saying about high heat. No where near enough to smelt iron. I guess anything over boiling point of water must be high heat to you. :)

Limited and the text dwells on iron mining exactly where? Again, we are talking New World where iron mines go deep underground.

Jaredites made swords of steel from molten rock. Nephi also. Look up molten in the index. They would need this knowledge to get the ore.