LittleNipper wrote:And you should have told Marklelan that when he made his remark. Now if you are really interested in the issue surrounding who killed Goliath you may wish to consider this: http://www.apologeticspress.org/apconte ... rticle=752
Why would anyone ever really want to consider anything Gleason Archer has to say? He was a pseudo-academic joke.
By now you must have realized that the Nipper is unshakeable in his beliefs, whatever evidence you propose to him. That's one of the reasons that I decided that it was pointless to continue the discussions with him on this thread. You must know people that are like that at work.
I actually really like Nipper. He seems to be a decent guy. He is just so confirmed in his beliefs that no logic will move him.
I often wonder if people that drink the kool-aid are happier than people like me that require some proof of their beliefs.
Well, one can only imagine what you might have said to the Lord Jesus Christ back in the day if you lived then... I do not believe that suicide is an answer to solving problems, and it seems to me that so many more non-believers come to practice it... I believe suicide is the gateway to hell.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yeah, Gleason is the poster child of anti-intellectual presuppositionalism. He's got absolutely nothing to contribute to biblical studies. His apologetics only serve to make people who don't know any better feel more comfortable in their naïveté and dogmatism.
Yeah, Gleason is the poster child of anti-intellectual presuppositionalism. He's got absolutely nothing to contribute to biblical studies. His apologetics only serve to make people who don't know any better feel more comfortable in their naïveté and dogmatism.
I believe your last sentence says more about you than the list of those you studied under...
2 Chronicles 6:1-42 King Solomon prayed, “Lord, you live in clouds and darkness. Now I have built a place for you, a place for you to abide through time.”
All the people of Israel were around. The king turned to look at them and asked God's blessing on them. He said, “Praise the Lord God of Israel! He has kept the promise he made to my father David when he said to him, ‘From the time I brought my people out of Egypt until now, I did not choose any city in the land of Israel as the place to build a temple where I would be worshiped, and I did not choose anyone to lead my people Israel. Now I have chosen Jerusalem as the place where I will be worshiped, and you, David, to rule my people.’”
Solomon continued, “My father David planned to build a temple for the worship of the Lord God of Israel, but the Lord said to him, ‘You were right in wanting to build a temple for me, but you will never build it. It is your son, your own son, who will build my temple.’ Now the Lord has kept his promise: I have succeeded my father as king of Israel, and I have built a temple for the worship of the Lord God of Israel. I have placed Ark in the Temple, which contains the stone tablets of the covenant which the Lord made with the people of Israel.”
In the presence of the people Solomon went and stood in front of the altar and raised his arms in prayer. Solomon had made a bronze platform and put it in the middle of the courtyard. It was eight feet square and five feet high. He mounted this platform, knelt down where everyone could see him, and raised his hands toward heaven.
He prayed, “Lord God of Israel, in all heaven and earth there is no god like you. You keep your covenant with your people and show them your love when they live in wholehearted obedience to you. You have kept the promise you made to my father David; today every word has been fulfilled. Now, Lord God of Israel, keep the other promise you made to my father when you told him that there would always be one of his descendants ruling as king of Israel, provided that they carefully obeyed your Law just as he did. So now, Lord God of Israel, let everything come true that you promised your servant David. But can you, God, really live on earth among men and women? Not even all of heaven is large enough to hold you, so how can this Temple that I have built be large enough? Lord my God, I am your servant. Listen to my prayer and grant the requests I make of you. Watch over this Temple day and night. You have promised that this is where you will be worshiped, so hear me when I face this Temple and pray. Hear my prayers and the prayers of your people Israel when they face this place and pray. In your home in heaven hear us and forgive us. When people are accused of wronging others and are brought to your altar in this Temple to take an oath that they are innocent, Lord, listen in heaven and judge your servants. Punish the guilty ones as they deserve and acquit the innocent.
“When your people Israel are defeated by their enemies because they have sinned against you and then when they turn to you and come to this Temple, humbly praying to you for forgiveness, listen to them in heaven. Forgive the sins of your people and bring them back to the land which you gave to them and to their ancestors. When you hold back the rain because your people have sinned against you and then when they repent and face this Temple, humbly praying to you, Lord, listen to them in heaven and forgive the sins of your servants, the people of Israel, and teach them to do what is right. Then, Lord, send rain on this land of yours, which you gave to your people as a permanent possession.
“When there is famine in the land or an epidemic or the crops are destroyed by scorching winds or swarms of locusts, or when your people are attacked by their enemies, or when there is disease or sickness among them, listen to their prayers. If any of your people Israel, out of heartfelt sorrow, stretch out their hands in prayer toward this Temple, hear their prayer. Listen to them in your home in heaven and forgive them. You alone know the thoughts of the human heart. Deal with each of us as we deserve, so that your people may honor you and obey you all the time they live in the land which you gave to our ancestors.
“When foreigners who live in a distant land hear how great and powerful you are and how you are always ready to act, and then they come to pray at this Temple, listen to their prayers. In heaven, where you live, hear them and do what they ask you to do, so that all the peoples of the world may know you and obey you, as your people Israel do. Then they will know that this Temple I have built is where you are to be worshiped.
“When you command your people to go into battle against their enemies and they pray to you, wherever they are, facing this city which you have chosen and this Temple which I have built for you, listen to their prayers. Hear them in heaven and give them victory.
“When your people sin against you—and there is no one who does not sin—and in your anger you let their enemies defeat them and take them as prisoners to some other land, even if that land is far away, listen to your people's prayers. If there in that land they repent and pray to you, confessing how sinful and wicked they have been, hear their prayers, Lord. If in that land they truly and sincerely repent and pray to you as they face toward this land which you gave to our ancestors, this city which you have chosen, and this Temple which I have built for you, then listen to their prayers. From your home in heaven hear them and be merciful to them and forgive all the sins of your people.
“Now, God, look on us and listen to the prayers offered here. Rise up now, Lord God, and with the Ark, the symbol of your power, enter the Temple and stay here forever. Bless your priests in all they do, and may all your people be happy because of your goodness to them. Lord God, do not reject the king you have chosen. Remember the love you had for your servant David.”
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 Then said Solomon, `Jehovah said -- to dwell in thick darkness,
2 and I -- I have built a house of habitation for Thee, and a fixed place for Thy dwelling to the ages.'
3 And the king turneth round his face, and blesseth the whole assembly of Israel, and the whole assembly of Israel is standing,
4 and he saith, `Blessed [is] Jehovah, God of Israel, who hath spoken with His mouth with David my father, and with His hands hath fulfilled [it], saying:
5 `From the day that I brought out My people from the land of Egypt, I have not fixed on a city out of any of the tribes of Israel to build a house for my name being there, and I have not fixed on a man to be leader over My people Israel;
6 and I fix on Jerusalem for My name being there, and I fix on David to be over My people Israel.
7 `And it is with the heart of David my father to build a house for the name of Jehovah God of Israel,
8 and Jehovah saith unto David my father, Because that it hath been with thy heart to build a house for My name, thou hast done well that it hath been with thy heart,
9 but thou dost not build the house, for thy son who cometh forth out from thy loins, he doth build the house for My name.
10 `And Jehovah doth establish His word that He spake, and I rise up in the stead of David my father, and sit on the throne of Israel, as Jehovah spake, and I build the house for the name of Jehovah, God of Israel,
11 and I place there the ark, where [is] the covenant of Jehovah that He made with the sons of Israel.'
12 And he standeth before the altar of Jehovah, over-against all the assembly of Israel, and spreadeth out his hand, --
13 for Solomon hath made a scaffold of brass, and putteth it in the midst of the court, five cubits its length, and five cubits its breadth, and three cubits its height, and he standeth upon it, and kneeleth on his knees over-against all the assembly of Israel, and spreadeth forth his hands towards the heavens --
14 and saith, `O Jehovah God of Israel, there is not like Thee a god in the heavens and in the earth, keeping the covenant and the kindness for Thy servants who are walking before Thee with all their heart;
15 who hast kept for Thy servant David my father that which Thou didst speak to him; yea, Thou dost speak with Thy mouth, and with Thy hand hast fulfilled [it], as at this day.
16 `And now, O Jehovah, God of Israel, keep for Thy servant David my father that which Thou didst speak to him, saying, There is not cut off to thee a man from before Me, sitting on the throne of Israel, only, if thy sons watch their way to walk in My law, as thou hast walked before Me.
17 `And now, O Jehovah, God of Israel, is Thy word stedfast that Thou hast spoken to Thy servant, to David,
18 (for is it true? -- God dwelleth with man on the earth! Lo, the heavens, and the heavens of the heavens, do not contain Thee, how much less this house that I have built?)
19 `And Thou hast turned unto the prayer of Thy servant, and unto his supplication, O Jehovah my God, to hearken unto the cry and unto the prayer that Thy servant is praying before Thee,
20 for Thine eyes being open towards this house by day and by night, towards the place that Thou hast said to put Thy name there, to hearken unto the prayer that Thy servant prayeth towards this place.
21 `And Thou hast hearkened unto the supplications of Thy servant, and of Thy people Israel, that they pray towards this place, and Thou dost hear from the place of Thy dwelling, from the heavens, and hast hearkened, and forgiven.
22 `If a man doth sin against his neighbour, and he hath lifted up on him an oath to cause him to swear, and the oath hath come in before Thine altar in this house --
23 then Thou dost hear from the heavens, and hast done, and hast judged Thy servants, to give back to the wicked, to put his way on his head, and to declare righteous the righteous, to give to him according to his righteousness.
24 `And if Thy people Israel is smitten before an enemy, because they sin against Thee, and they have turned back and confessed Thy name, and prayed and made supplication before Thee in this house --
25 then Thou dost hear from the heavens, and hast forgiven the sin of Thy people Israel, and caused them to turn back unto the ground that Thou hast given to them, and to their fathers.
26 `In the heavens being restrained, and there is no rain, because they sin against Thee, and they have prayed towards this place, and confessed Thy name -- from their sin they turn back because Thou dost afflict them --
27 then Thou dost hear in the heavens, and hast forgiven the sin of Thy servants, and of Thy people Israel, because Thou directest them unto the good way in which they walk, and hast given rain on Thy land that Thou hast given to Thy people for an inheritance.
28 `Famine, when it is in the land, pestilence, when it is, blasting, and mildew, locust, and caterpillar, when they are, when its enemies have distressed it in the land -- its gates, any plague and any sickness;
29 any prayer, any supplication that is for any man, and for all Thy people Israel, when they know each his own plague, and his own pain, and he hath spread out his hands towards this house:
30 then Thou dost hear from the heavens, the settled place of Thy dwelling, and hast forgiven, and hast given to each according to all his ways (because Thou knowest his heart, for Thou -- Thou only -- hast known the heart of the sons of men),
31 so that they fear Thee, to walk in Thy ways, all the days that they are living on the face of the ground that Thou hast given to our fathers.
32 `And also, unto the stranger who is not of Thy people Israel, and he hath come from a land afar off for the sake of Thy great name, and Thy strong hand, and Thy stretched-out arm, and they have come in and prayed towards this house:
33 then Thou dost hear from the heavens, from the settled place of Thy dwelling, and hast done according to all that the stranger calleth unto Thee for: so that all the peoples of the earth do know Thy name, so as to fear Thee, as Thy people Israel, and to know that Thy name is called on this house that I have built.
34 `When Thy people doth go out to battle against its enemies in the way that Thou dost send them, and they have prayed unto Thee the way of this city that Thou hast fixed on, and the house that I have built for Thy name:
35 then Thou hast heard from the heavens their prayer and their supplication, and hast maintained their cause.
36 `When they sin against Thee -- for there is not a man who sinneth not -- and Thou hast been angry with them, and hast given them before an enemy, and taken them captive have their captors, unto a land far off or near;
37 and they have turned [it] back unto their heart in the land whither they have been taken captive, and have turned back, and made supplication unto Thee in the land of their captivity, saying, We have sinned, we have done perversely, and have done wickedly;
38 yea, they have turned back unto Thee with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their captivity, whither they have taken them captive, and they have prayed the way of their land that Thou hast given to their fathers, and of the city that Thou hast chosen, and of the house that I have built for Thy name:
39 then Thou hast heard from the heavens, from the settled place of Thy dwelling, their prayer and their supplications, and hast maintained their cause, and forgiven Thy people who have sinned against Thee.
40 `Now, my God, let, I beseech Thee, Thine eyes be open, and Thine ears attentive, to the prayer of this place:
41 and now, rise, O Jehovah God, to Thy rest, Thou, and the ark of Thy strength; Thy priests, O Jehovah God, are clothed with salvation, and Thy saints rejoice in the goodness,
42 O Jehovah God, turn not back the face of Thine anointed, be mindful of the kind acts of David Thy servant.'
Last edited by Guest on Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
LittleNipper wrote:I believe your last sentence says more about you than the list of those you studied under...
You refused to respond to the evidence about David and just said you believed it and that's good enough for you. You put on display exactly the naïveté and dogmatism I referenced in that lat sentence.
maklelan wrote: Actually I've shown repeatedly that the versions often don't agree on controversial and theological critical passages, and often none approximate the meaning of the text or its original sense. I don't recall you ever directly engaging any of those concerns, though.
Actually, you have not. You have merely eluded that there maybe interpretive variables between some particular verses. However, the Bible is the sum of its parts and not one verse. ALL verses (particularly those with difficulties) need to be interpreted in light of each other and not as an entity unto itself. And the Bible certainly is not at the mercy of modern interpretation or additional non-biblical text/literature.
I winced when Maklelan use the word lie in his objection to Nippers dismissal of his observations. On the other had I can understand that Maklelan completely disagreed and being upset wanted a simple way of placing emphasis on that.
There may be a number of ways later portions of the Bible alter the meaning of earlier portions. That would be particularly visible with New Testament reinterpretation of Old Testament passages. In my understanding of inspiration such alteration is valid as a new statement being made in the New Testament. It makes sense to keep track of the old meanings being changed however. Maklelan to my understanding is trying to be clearer about those original meanings in the older texts. Considering Nippers comment above,"And the Bible certainly is not at the mercy of modern interpretation or additional non-biblical text/literature," it is ironic that Maklelan is the one working to see the text that way,no modern interpretation or addition of other literature. It would appear that it is Nipper who is telling the Bible what it should say and mean by appealing to post Biblical authorities.
LittleNipper wrote:Well, one can only imagine what you might have said to the Lord Jesus Christ back in the day if you lived then...
Probably something along the lines of "Hi Yashua, how's your mom doing"?
LittleNipper wrote: I do not believe that suicide is an answer to solving problems, and it seems to me that so many more non-believers come to practice it... I believe suicide is the gateway to hell.
My reference to kool-aid wasn't about suicide. Just about those who drink deeply of other people's confused theologies.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
LittleNipper wrote:I believe your last sentence says more about you than the list of those you studied under...
You refused to respond to the evidence about David and just said you believed it and that's good enough for you. You put on display exactly the naïveté and dogmatism I referenced in that lat sentence.
I have not refused to respond. I believe David killed Goliath (as the Bible says). And that Goliath's brother was killed by another. I believe that people trying very hard to discount the Bible have even promoted that there are two Creation stories in Genesis. The story of David and Saul is the longer story. If David lied and made up a story, God would never have said that David was a man after his own heart. You are a Mormon and you talk to me of dogmatism. You do not see hypocrisy this?
LittleNipper wrote:I have not refused to respond. I believe David killed Goliath (as the Bible says).
But you don't believe the Bible when it says Elhanan killed Goliath. You have to impose a theory about univocality and then find an explanation for the corruption of the text so that your theory holds in spite of what the Bible says.
LittleNipper wrote:And that Goliath's brother was killed by another.
Except we know Goliath had no brother named "My Bread." That's an asinine way to explain the direction of the textual corruption. So you have to accept a laughably bad text-critical reconstruction just so your theory can hold in spite of what the Bible says. You don't believe the Bible, you believe your dogma in spite of the Bible.
LittleNipper wrote:I believe that people trying very hard to discount the Bible have even promoted that there are two Creation stories in Genesis. The story of David and Saul is the longer story. If David lied and made up a story, God would never have said that David was a man after his own heart.
Or God didn't say that. Y'see how every last one of your assertions is based on an assumption that you cannot even begin to defend? It all comes down to you having decided to believe your tradition no matter what the Bible says.
LittleNipper wrote:You are a Mormon and you talk to me of dogmatism. You do not see hypocrisy this?