LittleNipper wrote:A sex grove is where pagans go to worship through ritual sexual relations with prostitutes. Those vestal virgins were not so very....
Ha, ha! The word there is just "asherahs," which refers to poles used for worship of Asherah. This was not a sexual cult, but it's sure not surprising to see fundies try to represent it as one to make it sound more disgusting. Asherah was YHWH's wife throughout the first temple period and no one had a problem with it. It wasn't until the Deuteronomist that people (priests whose income depended on it) started getting upset about attention being pointed elsewhere.
Thank you Mister Know it all. However, everyone else may just wish to read the following: http://pagannews.com/cgi-bin/gods3.pl?Asherah Please wait as it may take a minute to fully pop up. I would assume that what Pagans have to say about themselves is more relevant than what maklelan thinks "fundies" translate out of a hat.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
LittleNipper wrote:They worshipped gods that looked and acted much like themselves ---- creating gods in their image ---- worshipping stone or wood
Deuteronomy 4:28
27"The LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the LORD drives you. 28"There you will serve gods, the work of man's hands, wood and stone, which neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell. 29"But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.…
All the patriarchs set up stelae to worship God, and here's a picture of the incense altars and stelae set up in the holy of holies in the temple of Arad, which was administered by Hezekiah, representing YHWH and his wife:
Nobody cared about using stones and wood to worship YHWH until the time of the Deuteronomistic authors.
Nipper, the term "pagan" is a Latin word that originated more than a thousand years after and half-a-world away from the cult of Yahweh/Asherah. What you erroneously call "Paganism" has nothing to do with either Yahweh or Asherah.
LittleNipper wrote:I would assume that what Pagans have to say about themselves is more relevant than what maklelan thinks "fundies" translate out of a hat.
See above.
As usual, this is another excellent example of why you should take the time to read these web sites before you link to them.
Surprise, surprise, there is no divine mandate for the Church to discuss and portray its history accurately. --Yahoo Bot
I pray thee, sir, forgive me for the mess. And whether I shot first, I'll not confess. --Han Solo, from William Shakespeare's Star Wars
Nipper, the term "pagan" is a Latin word that originated more than a thousand years after and half-a-world away from the cult of Yahweh/Asherah. What you erroneously call "Paganism" has nothing to do with either Yahweh or Asherah.
LittleNipper wrote:I would assume that what Pagans have to say about themselves is more relevant than what maklelan thinks "fundies" translate out of a hat.
See above.
As usual, this is another excellent example of why you should take the time to read these web sites before you link to them.
Oh go put some clothes on, and read the Bible. Everyone knows what is meant by "pagan". My point stands unharmed by your 2 cents.
2 Chronicles 16:1-14 In the 36th year of King Asa’s reign, King Baasha of Israel declared war on him and built the fortress of Ramah in order to control the road to Judah. Asa’s response was to take the silver and gold from the Temple and from the palace, and to send it to King Ben-hadad of Syria at Damascus with this message:
“Let us renew the mutual security pact that there was between your father and my father. Here is silver and gold to induce you to break your alliance with King Baasha of Israel, so that he will leave me alone.”
Ben-hadad accepted King Asa’s request and sent armies to attack Israel --- destroying the cities of Ijon, Dan, Abel-maim and all of the supply centers in Naphtali. As soon as King Baasha of Israel heard what was happening, he ceased building Ramah and gave up the plan to attack Judah. Then King Asa and the people of Judah went to Ramah and carried away the building stones and timbers and used them to build Geba and Mizpah instead.
The prophet Hanani came to King Asa and told him, “Because you have put your trust in the king of Syria instead of in the Lord your God, the army of the king of Syria has escaped you. Don’t you remember what happened to the Ethiopians and Libyans and their vast army, with all of their chariots and cavalrymen? But you relied then on the Lord, and he delivered them all into your hand. The eyes of the Lord search back and forth across the whole earth, looking for people whose hearts are perfect toward him, so that he can show his great power by helping them. What a fool you have been! From now on you shall have wars.”
Asa was so angry with the prophet that he threw him into jail. And Asa oppressed all the people at that time. The rest of the biography of Asa is written in The Annals of the Kings of Israel and Judah (which are lost non-scriptural documents) In the 39th year of his reign, Asa became seriously diseased in his feet, but wouldn't go to the Lord with the problem but relied only on doctors. So he died in the 41st year of his reign and was buried in a vault that he had hewn out for himself in Jerusalem. He was laid on a bed perfumed with sweet spices and ointments. His subjects burned a lot of incense for him at his funeral.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 In the thirty and sixth year of the reign of Asa, come up hath Baasha king of Israel, against Judah, and buildeth Ramah, so as not to permit any going out and coming in to Asa king of Judah.
2 And Asa bringeth out silver and gold from the treasures of the house of Jehovah, and of the house of the king, and sendeth unto Ben-Hadad king of Aram, who is dwelling in Damascus, saying,
3 `A covenant [is] between me and thee, and between my father and thy father, lo, I have sent to thee silver and gold; go, break thy covenant with Baasha king of Israel, and he doth go up from off me.'
4 And Ben-Hadad hearkeneth unto king Asa, and sendeth the heads of the forces that he hath unto cities of Israel, and they smite Ijon, and Dan, and Abel-Maim, and all the stores, cities of Naphtali.
5 And it cometh to pass, at Baasha's hearing, that he ceaseth from building Ramah, and letteth his work rest;
6 and Asa the king hath taken all Judah, and they bear away the stones of Ramah, and its wood, that Baasha hath built, and he buildeth with them Geba and Mizpah.
7 And at that time hath Hanani the seer come in unto Asa king of Judah, and saith unto him, `Because of thy leaning on the king of Aram, and thou hast not leaned on Jehovah thy God, therefore hath the force of the king of Aram escaped from thy hand.
8 Did not the Cushim and the Lubim become a very great force for multitude, for chariot, and for horsemen? and in thy leaning on Jehovah He gave them into thy hand,
9 for Jehovah -- His eyes go to and fro in all the earth, to show Himself strong [for] a people whose heart [is] perfect towards Him; thou hast been foolish concerning this, because -- henceforth there are with thee wars.'
10 And Asa is angry at the seer, and giveth him to the house of torture, for [he is] in a rage with him for this; and Asa oppresseth [some] of the people at that time.
11 And lo, the matters of Asa, the first and the last, lo, they are written on the book of the kings of Judah and Israel.
12 And Asa is diseased -- in the thirty and ninth year of his reign -- in his feet, till his disease is excessive, and also in his disease he hath not sought Jehovah, but among physicians.
13 And Asa lieth with his fathers, and dieth in the forty and first year of his reign,
14 and they bury him in [one of] his graves, that he had prepared for himself in the city of David, and they cause him to lie on a bed that [one] hath filled [with] spices, and divers kinds of mixtures, with perfumed work; and they burn for him a burning -- very great.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
LittleNipper wrote:Everyone knows what is meant by "pagan".
Everyone except you, apparently.
LittleNipper wrote:My point stands unharmed by your 2 cents.
What point are you "eluding" to, Nipper?
I don't hate you. However, that picture is not of you -- but of what you appear to worship. A pagan is anyone who places his faith in anything accept the God of the Bible.
1 And Jehoshaphat his son reigneth in his stead, and he strengtheneth himself against Israel,
2 and putteth a force in all the fenced cities of Judah, and putteth garrisons in the land of Judah, and in the cities of Ephraim that Asa his father had captured.
3 And Jehovah is with Jehoshaphat, for he hath walked in the first ways of David his father, and hath not sought to Baalim,
4 for to the God of his father he hath sought, and in His commands he hath walked, and not according to the work of Israel.
5 And Jehovah doth establish the kingdom in his hand, and all Judah give a present to Jehoshaphat, and he hath riches and honour in abundance,
6 and his heart is high in the ways of Jehovah, and again he hath turned aside the high places and the shrines out of Judah.
7 And in the third year of his reign he hath sent for his heads, for Ben-Hail, and for Obadiah, and for Zechariah, and for Nethaneel, and for Michaiah, to teach in cities of Judah,
8 and with them the Levites, Shemaiah, and Nethaniah, and Zebadiah, and Asahel, and Shemiramoth, and Jehonathan, and Adonijah, and Tobijath, and Tob-Adonijah, the Levites; and with them Elishama and Jehoram, the priests.
9 And they teach in Judah, and with them [is] the Book of the Law of Jehovah, and they go round about into all cities of Judah, and teach among the people.
10 And here is a fear of Jehovah on all kingdoms of the lands that [are] round about Judah, and they have not fought with Jehoshaphat;
11 and of the Philistines they are bringing in to Jehoshaphat a present, and tribute silver; also, the Arabians are bringing to him a flock, rams seven thousand an seven hundred, and he-goats seven thousand and seven hundred.
12 And Jehoshaphat is going on and becoming very great, and he buildeth in Judah palaces and cities of store,
13 and he hath much work in cities of Judah; and men of war, mighty of valour, [are] in Jerusalem.
14 And these [are] their numbers, for the house of their fathers: Of Judah, heads of thousands, Adnah the head, and with him mighty ones of valour, three hundred chiefs.
15 And at his hand [is] Jehohanan the head, and with him two hundred and eighty chiefs.
16 And at his hand [is] Amasiah son of Zichri, who is willingly offering himself to Jehovah, and with him two hundred chiefs, mighty of valour.
17 And of Benjamin: mighty of valour, Eliada, and with him, armed with bow and shield, two hundred chiefs.
18 And at his hand [is] Jehozabad, and with him a hundred and eighty chiefs, armed ones of the host.
19 These [are] those serving the king, apart from those whom the king put in the cities of fortress, in all Judah.
2 Chronicles 18:1-34 Though Jehoshaphat was very rich and much honored, he made a marriage alliance with Ahab of Israel. Some time later he visited Ahab at Samaria. Ahab celebrated this visit with a feast with all the lamb and beef one could eat. Ahab had a hidden agenda; he wanted Jehoshaphat’s support in attacking Ramoth Gilead. Then Ahab made this known: “Will you join me in attacking Ramoth Gilead?” Jehoshaphat agreed and would send troops.
Jehoshaphat said, “But before you do anything, ask God for guidance.” The king of Israel gathered the prophets — 400 hundred of them—and put the question to them: “Should I attack Ramoth Gilead or should I hold back?” They said to attack and God will hand it over to the king.
Jehoshaphat dragged his feet, and desired another opinion. The king of Israel told Jehoshaphat that there was another. But Ahab hated him because he always preached doom ---- Micaiah son of Imlah. “The king shouldn’t talk about a prophet like that!” said Jehoshaphat.
So the Ahab of Israel ordered one of his men to go get Micaiah son of Imlah. Meanwhile, the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat were seated on their thrones, dressed in their royal robes, in front of the Samaria city gates. All the prophets were prophesying for their benefit. Zedekiah son of Kenaanah had even made a set of iron horns, and brandishing them, called out, “God’s word! With these horns you’ll gore Aram until there’s nothing left of them!” All the prophets chimed in, in agreement.
The messenger who went to get Micaiah told him, the prophets have all said Yes to the king, it would be great if Micaiah made it unanimous.” But Micaiah said, “As sure as there's a God, what God says, I’ll say.”
With Micaiah before him, the king asked him, “Micaiah—do we attack Ramoth Gilead? Or do we hold back?” “Go ahead,” he said, “an easy victory! God’s gift to the king.” “Not so fast,” said the king. “How many times have I made you promise under oath to tell me the truth and nothing but the truth?” “All right,” said Micaiah, “since you insist . . .
I saw all of Israel scattered over the hills, sheep with no shepherd. Then God spoke, ‘These poor people have no one to tell them what to do. Let them go home and do the best they can for themselves.’”
The king of Israel turned to Jehoshaphat, “See! He never has a good word for me from God, only doom.” Micaiah kept on, “I’m not done yet; listen to God’s word:
I saw God enthroned, and all the multitude of heaven standing at attention, ranged on his right and his left. And God said, “How can we seduce Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead?” Some said this, and some said that. Then a spirit stepped out, stood before God, and said, “I’ll seduce him.” “And how will you do it?” said God. “Easy,” said the spirit, “I’ll get all the prophets to lie.” “You have been enabled,” said God; “On your way—seduce him!”
God filled the mouths of the puppet prophets with seductive lies. God pronounced doom. Just then Zedekiah son of Kenaanah came up and slapped Micaiah in the face, saying, “Since when did the Spirit of God leave me and take up with you?” Micaiah said, “You’ll know soon enough; you’ll know it when you’re frantically and futilely looking for a place to hide.”
The king of Israel had heard enough and turned him over to Amon the city magistrate and to Joash the king’s son with this message: ‘King’s orders! Lock him up in jail; keep him on bread and water until I’m back in one piece.’”
Micaiah said, "If you ever get back in one piece, I’m no prophet of God. When it happens, O people, remember where you heard it!"
The king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah went ahead and attacked Ramoth Gilead. The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “Wear my kingly robe; I’m going into battle disguised.” The king of Israel entered the battle in disguise. The king of Aram had ordered his chariot commanders (32 of them), “Don’t bother with anyone whether small or great; go after the king of Israel and him only.”
When the chariot commanders saw Jehoshaphat, they said, “There he is! The king of Israel!” and chased after him. Jehoshaphat yelled out, and the chariot commanders realized they were after the wrong man—it wasn’t the king of Israel after all. God intervened and they let him go. Just then someone, without aiming, shot an arrow into the crowd and hit the king of Israel through a chink in his armor. The king told his charioteer, “Turn back! Get me out of here—I’m wounded.” All that day the fighting continued. Propped up in his chariot, the king watched from the sidelines. He died that evening.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And Jehoshaphat hath riches and honour in abundance, and joineth affinity to Ahab,
2 and goeth down at the end of [certain] years unto Ahab to Samaria, and Ahab sacrificeth for him sheep and oxen in abundance, and for the people who [are] with him, and persuadeth him to go up unto Ramoth-Gilead.
3 And Ahab king of Israel saith unto Jehoshaphat king of Judah, `Dost thou go with me [to] Ramoth-Gilead?' And he saith to him, `As I -- so thou, and as thy people -- my people, even with thee in battle.'
4 And Jehoshaphat saith unto the king of Israel, `Seek, I pray thee, this day, the word of Jehovah.'
5 And the king of Israel gathereth the prophets, four hundred men, and saith unto them, `Do we go unto Ramoth-Gilead to battle, or do I forbear?' And they say, `Go up, and God doth give [it] into the hand of the king.'
6 And Jehoshaphat saith, `Is there not here a prophet of Jehovah still, and we seek from him?'
7 And the king of Israel saith unto Jehoshaphat, `Still -- one man to seek Jehovah from him, and I -- I have hated him, for he is not prophesying concerning me of good, but all his days of evil, he [is] Micaiah son of Imlah;' and Jehoshaphat saith, `Let not the king say so.'
8 And the king of Israel calleth unto a certain officer, and saith, `Hasten Micaiah son of Imlah.'
9 And the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah are sitting, each on his throne, clothed with garments, and they are sitting in a threshing-floor at the opening of the gate of Samaria, and all the prophets are prophesying before them.
10 And Zedekiah son of Chenaanah maketh for himself horns of iron, and saith, `Thus said Jehovah,
11 With these thou dost push Aram till thou hast consumed them.' And all the prophets are prophesying so, saying, `Go up [to] Ramath-Gilead and prosper, and Jehovah hath given [it] into the hand of the king.'
12 And the messenger who hath gone to call for Micaiah hath spoken unto him, saying, `Lo, the words of the prophets -- one mouth -- [are] good towards the king, and let, I pray thee, thy word be like one of theirs: and thou hast spoken good.'
13 And Micaiah saith `Jehovah liveth, surely that which my God saith, it I speak.'
14 And he cometh in unto the king, and the king saith unto him, `Micaiah, do we go unto Ramoth-Gilead to battle, or do I forbear?' And he saith, `Go ye up, and prosper, and they are given into your hand.'
15 And the king saith unto him, `How many times am I adjuring thee, that thou speak unto me only truth in the name of Jehovah?'
16 And he saith, `I have seen all Israel scattered on the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd, and Jehovah saith, There are no masters to these, they turn back each to his house in peace.'
17 And the king of Israel saith unto Jehoshaphat, `Did I not say unto thee, He doth not prophesy concerning me good, but rather of evil?'
18 And he saith, `Therefore, hear ye a word of Jehovah: I have seen Jehovah sitting on His throne, and all the host of the heavens standing on His right and His left;
19 and Jehovah saith, Who doth entice Ahab king of Israel, and he doth go up and fall in Ramoth-Gilead? And this speaker saith thus, and that speaker thus.
20 And go out doth the spirit, and stand before Jehovah, and saith, I do entice him; and Jehovah saith unto him, With what?
21 and he saith, I go out, and have become a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And He saith, Thou dost entice, and also, thou art able; go out and do so.
22 And, now, lo, Jehovah hath put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of these thy prophets, and Jehovah hath spoken concerning thee -- evil.'
23 And Zedekiah son of Chenaanah cometh nigh, and smiteth Micaiah on the cheek, and saith, `Where [is] this -- the way the Spirit of Jehovah passed over from me to speak with thee?'
24 And Micaiah saith, `Lo, thou dost see in that day, that thou dost enter into the innermost chamber to be hidden.'
25 And the king of Israel saith, `Take ye Micaiah, and turn him back unto Amon head of the city, and unto Joash son of the king,
26 and ye have said, Thus said the king, Put ye this [one] in the house of restraint, and cause him to eat bread of oppression, and water of oppression, till my return in peace.'
27 And Micaiah saith, `If thou dost certainly return in peace, Jehovah hath not spoken by me;' and he saith, `Hear ye, O peoples, all of them!'
28 And the king of Israel goeth up, and Jehoshaphat king of Judah, unto Ramoth-Gilead;
29 and the king of Israel saith unto Jehoshaphat to disguise himself, and to go into battle, `And thou, put on thy garments.' And the king of Israel disguiseth himself, and they go into battle.
30 And the king of Aram hath commanded the heads of the charioteers whom he hath, saying, `Ye do not fight with small or with great, except with the king of Israel by himself.'
31 And it cometh to pass at the heads of the charioteers seeing Jehoshaphat, that they have said, `The king of Israel he is,' and they turn round against him to fight, and Jehoshaphat crieth out, and Jehovah hath helped him, and God enticeth them from him,
32 yea, it cometh to pass, at the heads of the charioteers seeing that it hath not been the king of Israel -- they turn back from after him.
33 And a man hath drawn with a bow, in his simplicity, and smiteth the king of Israel between the joinings and the coat of mail, and he saith to the charioteer, `Turn thy hand, and thou hast brought me out of the camp, for I have become sick.'
34 And the battle increaseth on that day, and the king of Israel hath been stayed up in the chariot over-against Aram till the evening, and he dieth at the time of the going in of the sun.