Second Thoughts

[_Ray A]

We shall see, Ray.

Runtu is not like you, he does not believe in the Book of Mormon as you do. He himself knows that it all is 100% fecal matter.

Tell you what, lets wager $50 USD on this. The loser must PayPal the funds to the board.

Are you game?

I am, and have a $50 donation to Shady Acres to put on the table.

They say an Aussie will wager on cockroaches running up a wall, but unfortunately I'm not a betting man. I don't care to be shown to be wrong. My pride is not at stake. I've made assessments, and my life doesn't depend on it. I wish Runtu the best. I think he's an honourable and honest man.

As for the Book of Mormon, yes, I do still read it for inspiration. Whatever I may deny in my life, let me never deny my belief in the spiritual message of the Book of Mormon. It speaks to my heart, and I will never deny that. I love the Book of Mormon. Does that irk you? Too bad, friend. I may even be a far worse than many. You may be a far better person than I am. But despite all my heresies and problems, a broken marriage, family division, I believe God spoke to me through the Book of Mormon. And you can hate me all you want for that. Forums me jacks*** to me. Praise means jacks*** to me. So heaven and hell can throw all the trials, but I will never deny the Book of Mormon. Did you get that, PP? It doesn't have to be "history" for me, PP. The spiritual message I get is loud and clear. Loud and clear.

[_Polygamy Porter]

The last thing to consider is what you will tell your children in 10, 15, 20 years when they come to you and ask for advice when they find themselves in the SAME situation as you are in now.

Only for them to find out you never believed any of it.


Your wife will get over it, don't risk the lives of your children for the sake of allowing your wife to lean on her needed priesthood crutch.

Remember, you are not responsible for her discomfort. The blame lies on the cult which has been passed down from the hearts of the fathers to the hearts of the children. A great responsibility lies on your sholders Runtu, that being the breaking of the passing of the cult from you to them. Set them free, give them a choice.

[_Polygamy Porter]

We shall see, Ray.

Runtu is not like you, he does not believe in the Book of Mormon as you do. He himself knows that it all is 100% fecal matter.

Tell you what, lets wager $50 USD on this. The loser must PayPal the funds to the board.

Are you game?

I am, and have a $50 donation to Shady Acres to put on the table.

They say an Aussie will wager on cockroaches running up a wall, but unfortunately I'm not a betting man. I don't care to be shown to be wrong. My pride is not at stake. I've made assessments, and my life doesn't depend on it. I wish Runtu the best. I think he's an honourable and honest man.

As for the Book of Mormon, yes, I do still read it for inspiration. Whatever I may deny in my life, let me never deny my belief in the spiritual message of the Book of Mormon. It speaks to my heart, and I will never deny that. I love the Book of Mormon. Does that irk you? Too bad, friend. I may even be a far worse than many. You may be a far better person than I am. But despite all my heresies and problems, a broken marriage, family division, I believe God spoke to me through the Book of Mormon. And you can hate me all you want for that. Forums me jacks*** to me. Praise means jacks**** to me. So heaven and hell can throw all the trials, but I will never deny the Book of Mormon. Did you get that, PP? It doesn't have to be "history" for me, PP. The spiritual message I get is loud and clear. Loud and clear.

that's great Ray.

My only regret is that the Book of Mormon does not come on a quilted 4" wide roll, perforated every 4"... then I might have a genuine need for it.

So entertain my inquiry Ray, You believe the Book of Mormon to be the divine word of a God? Do you believe that Joe was not a charlatan? So you believe that one book authored(in part) by old Joe to be divine, but what about the other books that he wrote like the Book of Abraham, Moses, D&C???

[_Runtu]

Do I want my wife and kids to see through the facade of Mormonism? Of course I do. But it must be on their terms, not mine. In the beginning, I really wanted my wife to know what I knew: that it was a bogus religion in every way. She wanted none of that. She threw away my books, told me who I was not to talk to, what I was not to read, etc. I finally had enough and told her I wouldn't be dictated to, but I have respected her wishes and have not talked to her since then about the things I have discovered.

As far as my children go, I promised my wife that I would not approach them about my beliefs, but if they asked me, I would tell them. My oldest son asked, and when I told him what I thought, he said, "I'm really glad I'm not the only one in the family who figured out it's a load of crap." My daughter asked me, and when I told her, she took the same approach my wife has: that I've been deceived by evil people, and someday I'll come to my senses.

But do I want my family out of Mormonism? That's a more difficult question. In a perfect world, yes, I would want them out of what I view as a morally bankrupt and manipulative corporation. Yes, it does good things for a lot of people, but the harm it does to the conscience and to the soul far outweigh the good. But in the real world, it's not that easy. Mormonism is life for my wife, just as it was for me. It has been her anchor since childhood; it's the one constant she's been able to hold onto. I'd like her to see through it, but I'm not sure she could deal with the fallout. So, I suppose what I really want is for my family to make informed decisions. I think it's OK to be Mormon as long as you have your eyes open about what it is.

Does that make sense?

For Gaz: I think you mean well (at least I hope so), but I think God would be offended if I went to him and asked him to verify things I already know to be untrue.

[_Roger Morrison]

Runtu, some good advice here. Especially the first response from Bond, excellent!

"to thine own self..." Who said, why and under what circumstances? BUT it does call You to look at your priorities and values.

IF "THE CHURCH" is the most important, then stay home and let your family deal with it!!! IF your family is more important, then go with them to church. A lot of details missing here, children ages, meetings attended, distance from church, ever/never missed a service, other interests, etc...

Dealing with "things" is a very personal thing. Your disposition, etc. I don't think many resposible family contributers NEVER sacrifice time and energy for the benefit of the family. How many just LOVE their job, the commute to work, EVERY household chore, etc. etc???

IMSCO too many spouses--and i suspect more men, cuz a real-man don't let no-one manipulate/tell HIM--do not understand the skill, and necessity of compromise. Might your kids learn the value of that here? Might they learn what holds a family together? That is certainly needed...

How are the other hours of the week filled??? This is more than about church Bro. Warm regards, Roger

[_Runtu]

Thank you all for the good advice. You all have contributed some good things to think about.

[_Yoda]

Hi Runtu!

Although PP and I disagree on some issues, I do agree with him on one point. You do need to talk to your wife. You need to find out why she is feeling as fragile as she is.

Since it's obvious that you love her, and want to support her, frankly, I don't really see a problem with you going to Church with your family.

If putting on a suit Sunday morning and going to Church with your family is going to stabilize the relationship with your wife, then why not?

Now....I would set limits. That's the one thing I HAVE learned how to do with this Church. I know when to say NO and I don't feel guilty about it.

I only serve in callings where I genuinely WANT to serve and enjoy what I'm doing. If I'm asked to do something too taxing, I'm honest and tell them I'm sorry, I can't. I have work commitments, etc.

[_Polygamy Porter]

Hi Runtu!

Although PP and I disagree on some issues, I do agree with him on one point. You do need to talk to your wife. You need to find out why she is feeling as fragile as she is.

Some issues? Nah more than some..

Since it's obvious that you love her, and want to support her, frankly, I don't really see a problem with you going to Church with your family.

If putting on a suit Sunday morning and going to Church with your family is going to stabilize the relationship with your wife, then why not?

It not going to stabilize squat. She will be getting what she wants. For them to meet in the middle means he does not bother her about it and she leaves him alone for not attending.

Now....I would set limits. That's the one thing I HAVE learned how to do with this Church. I know when to say NO and I don't feel guilty about it.

I only serve in callings where I genuinely WANT to serve and enjoy what I'm doing. If I'm asked to do something too taxing, I'm honest and tell them I'm sorry, I can't. I have work commitments, etc.

Then why even attend, If you don't fully believe?
In my ward, the bishop told the combined Relief Society and penishood that anyone who turns down a calling is like unto Laman and Lemuel..

[_Yoda]

Hi PP! ;)

Some issues? Nah more than some..

Yes, but at least our disagreements have been, for the most part, civil. I'm on the more liberal side of the Church going spectrum. LOL

It not going to stabilize squat. She will be getting what she wants. For them to meet in the middle means he does not bother her about it and she leaves him alone for not attending.

I agree with this in the long run. However, like you pointed out in an earlier post, Runtu's wife appears to be very fragile. It seems like there is more going on than just him not attending. He needs to get to the bottom of it by talking to her and find out exactly what is going on.

Then why even attend, If you don't fully believe?

Complicated question....a lot of it has to do with family ties and tradition. I also do enjoy the music...and going for social reasons.

In my ward, the bishop told the combined Relief Society and penishood that anyone who turns down a calling is like unto Laman and Lemuel..

To whom I would have said, "So what." (I may have used stronger language, but we're in the Celestial forum...LOL). I've been very frank with my current bishop. I'm a damned good pianist. If you want me to play the piano for the kids in primary, you're going to get an awesome program, and you're not going to find anyone better. I work full-time, so I don't have time to head committees, etc. If you want to utilize my talent where I'm willing to give it, fine. Otherwise, leave me alone.

Am I a hypocrite? Probably....but I enjoy my life. I've learned to strike a balance that works for me.

[_Polygamy Porter]

Am I a hypocrite? Probably....but I enjoy my life. I've learned to strike a balance that works for me.

Hey, when in Rome... when among hypocrites, be a hypocrite :) NP, Mormonism was founded, perpetuated and is carried on by hypocrites.