What's Your Take on Near Death Experiences?

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_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

Miss Taken wrote:Fortigurn. My husband has drawn similar conclusions to you. We had our first ...ahem...heated debate on our honeymoom of all places, about George Ritchie's book. 'Return from tomorrow'.

http://www.near-death.com/ritch.html


Thanks, I'll have a look.

Some of these people have been pronounced dead because there was no brain activity, no pulse, and obviously no heart beat. I don't know how else you can define death. To all intents and purposes they were dead, using the perhaps limited sophistication of hospital monitoring equipment.


That is defined as 'clinically dead', which means that there are no perceptible signs of life using standard tests for standard signs of life. It does not mean that life has necessarily ceased. Where there is consciousness, there is life.

Some had their eyes covered, but could see perfectly and describe what had happened with senses that were s*** down.


This isn't actually verifiable. What we can say is that some had their eyes covered, but had a later recollection of observing events which took place while they were unconscious and sightless.

The brain is astonishingly good at constructing realistic experiences and memories from the barest scraps of sensory data. An alarm clock ringing might wake you up within 5 seconds, but inside that timeframe your brain can incorporate that auditory data into an existing dream (or generate a new dream incorporating it), contextualize the sound and provide a rational explanation for it within the dream, provide an experience which appears to take at least half an hour, and convince you that the entire experience is utterly real - until you actually awake.

Emergency rooms are noisy places. There is a vast amount of auditory data to which the brain has access, as long as the auditory system is functioning - and the sense of hearing is apparently the last sense to be lost prior to death. A dropped surgical instrument could easily provide sufficient data for the brain to create a 'dream' which presents the event visually in order to contextualize and explain the sound, and if the brain was receiving auditory data, then it would hear plenty which informed it that it was in an emergency room, providing a logical foundation for a rational explanation of the sound as a dropped surgical instrument.

I read one description of an NDE in which a man said that while he was 'out of his body' he wanted to tell the doctors not to give up, and was trying to indicate to them that he was alive. The description went on to say that the doctors later said that they had in fact been negative about his chances at that point.

This seems remarkable. But it is possible that the man heard the doctors' negative prognosis, and responded emotionally as a result. In response to this stimulus, the brain constructed an environment in which the man was able to attempt to advise the doctors that he was still alive. Unable to communicate in any other way, the brain attempted to give the illusion of capacity to communicate. Interestingly, the man did not claim to have heard the doctors' negative prognosis during the 'out of body experience', which suggests that he was not receiving the information at a conscious level.

I think 'some' of the experiences are explainable but there is a minority of cases that even the doctors will admit that they cannot explain.


Yes, I noticed that.

Just out of interest I download an astronomy picture each day, and this one particularly interested me.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap070318.html

It's probably lazy research!, but my experience in life has taught me that there is more to life than this physical universe.
I'm open minded about the whole thing..


As a Christian, I am convinced that there is more to life than this physical universe. I just don't believe that our lives extend beyond this physical universe.
Lazy research debunked: bcspace x 4 | maklelan x 3 | Coggins7 x 5 (by Mr. Coffee x5) | grampa75 x 1 | whyme x 2 | rcrocket x 2 | Kerry Shirts x 1 | Enuma Elish x 1|
_Mary
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Post by _Mary »

As a Christian, I am convinced that there is more to life than this physical universe. I just don't believe that our lives extend beyond this physical universe.


Can you elucidate further!!
I'm intrigued..
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

Miss Taken wrote:
As a Christian, I am convinced that there is more to life than this physical universe. I just don't believe that our lives extend beyond this physical universe.


Can you elucidate further!!
I'm intrigued..


Sure:

* I'm a Christian

* I believe in a god who is transcendent (is not confined to this physical universe)

* I believe that humans are utterly mortal, that consciousness is a product of physiological functions, and that when we die whatever was 'us' has been utterly annihilated

* I do believe in resurrection, which I see as the only way people can live again after they have died (you will note that this is the corollary of my third point)
Lazy research debunked: bcspace x 4 | maklelan x 3 | Coggins7 x 5 (by Mr. Coffee x5) | grampa75 x 1 | whyme x 2 | rcrocket x 2 | Kerry Shirts x 1 | Enuma Elish x 1|
_Mary
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Post by _Mary »

* I believe that humans are utterly mortal, that consciousness is a product of physiological functions, and that when we die whatever was 'us' has been utterly annihilated

* I do believe in resurrection, which I see as the only way people can live again after they have died (you will note that this is the corollary of my third point)


Can you explain what you understand by resurrection?

I'm making no assumptions here!!
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

Miss Taken wrote:
* I believe that humans are utterly mortal, that consciousness is a product of physiological functions, and that when we die whatever was 'us' has been utterly annihilated

* I do believe in resurrection, which I see as the only way people can live again after they have died (you will note that this is the corollary of my third point)


Can you explain what you understand by resurrection?

I'm making no assumptions here!!


Sure. Resurrection is the re-formation of the body and mind, such that the original individual is complete and alive again.
Lazy research debunked: bcspace x 4 | maklelan x 3 | Coggins7 x 5 (by Mr. Coffee x5) | grampa75 x 1 | whyme x 2 | rcrocket x 2 | Kerry Shirts x 1 | Enuma Elish x 1|
_gramps
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Post by _gramps »

Julie wrote:I have never studied nde in any detail, but may or may not have had one. When having my wisdom teeth pulled in 1996 or thereabouts, the oral surgeon knocked me out either too much or not enough (not sure which)? I did see the ultra bright "white light" it was a warm and I must say completely peaceful feeling (no fear at all). However, I was aware of being at the dentist and recall vividly, wanting to ask the surgeon if I was dead or not, but of course I couldn't. It was like I could think but not communicate.
Well I did tell my husband and mom about it, but that was about it. I thought it was the drug that likely caused that experience. Then when I went to my regular dentist and said a tooth was bothering me he mentioned that it was odd, he said "the bottom wisdom teeth should have been extracted also, I don't understand why he didn't do it"? So I told him my story. I could tell he believed me, but forget his exact comment. To this day I wonder if I was actually close to death that afternoon, otherwise why would he not finish the work or even tell me he hadn't.
When I do die I hope it feels like that though, it was a very pleasurable feeling.
No, I'm not a nut! ;)


Interesting, Julie! When I had my wisdom tooth taken out (for some reason I only had one(?)), I had what I thought then, was an amazing vision. It was terrifying, sad, completely real, unbelievable.

I have thought a lot about it. Now, I think I know what was going on. The drug they must have administered was Ketamin, I am sure. I have since tried Ketamin many times and I am sure that is what caused the hallucination. Quite an awesome experience when you know you are taking it. Terrifying when you don't know what caused it. For many years I thought I had had a vision from God.

They are supposed to give another drug together with the Ketamin which prevents memories of the dream hallucination. Obviously, in my case, they didn"t. But, this was back in 1977.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_Ezias
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Post by _Ezias »

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Last edited by Anonymous on Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Mary
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Post by _Mary »

Hi Ezias,

I have no idea, but I'll keep an open mind about it all.

Mary
_gramps
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Re: Drug induced NDE experiences

Post by _gramps »

Ezias wrote:Anybody researching NDE's should read an excellent article found here http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html . It shows that NDE experiences can be drug induced as well as trauma induced.

Ketamine is a very good example and is mentioned in the article. I watched a tv show a few years ago where a blind person claimed to be able to see what was going on around him from a viewpoint outside the body while he was on ketamine (keep in mind though this was tv, and could be classified as hearsay). I also have some personal experiences I'll share. My niece was given ketamine during an operation and I believe she said she felt out of her body. Not that she saw things around her during this experience, but ketamine produces a disassociation feeling from the body to make it seem that consciousness is apart from the body.

I found it very interesting that the article above mentions other hallucinogenic drugs as well. Many, many years ago (I would never do this now) I experimented with psylocibin mushrooms (I picked them myself near my home). I ingested way too many (although fatal overdose is not possible) and had what people refer to as a "bad trip". Basically I went to hell, outer darkness, so to speak. I knew I was on drugs, so I knew I wasn't dead, however, I believed that I could possibly die and stay there permanently. It was a horrible but also very educational and "mind expanding" experience. I prayed to be rescued from this hell so that I would not end up there permanently and was rescued by an unseen force (angel?) and brought back to physical reality and the intensity of the experience waned. The whole trip lasted 18 hours. Afterwards I was left to ponder whether or not the spiritual aspect of the experience was real, or just chemicals in my brain. During the experience, It seemed that this spiritual reality I was experiencing was more real and more eternal than our normal physical reality.

This experience (like many NDE's) permanently changed my life. I had a more profound understanding of the difference between good and evil and their place in the universe. I became extremely interested in anything that had to do with religion, or other psychic or spiritual phenomena. I began studying religions of the world, including the religion of my upbringing, LDS. (Not LSD) :) To this day the question still rests on my mind: was I really having a spiritual experience, or was all of this just a chemical reaction going on with my brain?

Just because spiritual experiences are drug induced does not necessarily mean they are not valid spiritual experiences. In fact, I would argue that most religions of the world have either been started or have been heavily influenced by drug induced experiences (that could be an entirely new topic). Native american shamans have been using hallucinogenic drugs as enthoegens (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entheogen for thousands of years.

Perhaps some drugs, as well as trauma, open up the door to the spirit world so to speak, so that mortals are able to briefly experience the eternal. Or, on the other hand, maybe it's all just brain chemistry and the hallucinations are derived from the past experiences of the individual.

What do you think?


Well I have also thought the same at times, that religion began as a drug-induced condition. Probably, mushrooms or other local entheogenic substances. The Indians in south America have been ingesting ayahuasca for a long time. the Mayans were mushroom eaters. Other Indians in Mexico and Arizona, peyote and datura eaters. And who knows what Soma really was, whether pot or something else. The Greeks were apparently using something as well in their ceremonies, if my research is correct.

There is also the research done at Harvard with the Divinity students who all ingested mushrooms and then recounted their experiences. At least half of them were very impressed.

Certainly Terence McKenna considered this as a possibility, if not a probability.

Who knows? I have had some wonderful, memorable, even what I would call, religious experiences with entheogens and I think they can be a valuable way to open into the "spiritual world."

Of course, now you can take courses at Esalen, among other places, and create these experiences through breathing techniques coupled with music. I have not tried this avenue, but a friend says it was quite a powerful experience.

Nice to see that I'm not the only one who has thought along these lines.

Welcome, as well.

gramps
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
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Post by _Alter Idem »

Ezias, thanks for sharing. Very interesting, especially in that your experience had a lasting impact on you.
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