Comparitive Religion

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_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Valorius wrote:
Roger Morrison wrote: "God" don't neccessarily make things 'easy'... "God" just makes 'em possible! An, WE MAKE 'EM HAPPEN!!


We are so much on the same track, if we was goin' in different directions, we'd crash.

Happy Rails !


Gottcha Bro... Roger, an' out, with warm regards of course... :-)
_3DOP
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The Role of Miracles in Catholic Teaching

Post by _3DOP »

My first post...I am Catholic. Some of you might remember me as Rory from ZLMB.

Val
The Catholic apologists whose arguments I have encountered mentioned miracles incidentally and golden streets not at all. I believe you are referring to evangelicals or charismatics, to Catholic laity, or to some sort of Catholic clergy with which I am unfamiliar. The backbone of Catholic apologetics, Thomas Aquinas, eschewed “magic and dreams” to lay the primary foundation for his systematic theology/ontology. He entered into discussion of miracles later, if I am not mistaken. My focus was always on his proofs of God, not miracles or Christ's role.

3DOP
The First Vatican Council gave a pretty good explanation of the importance placed in miracles and prophecies according to the Catholic faith:
Nevertheless, in order that the submission of our faith should be in accordance with reason, it was God's will that there should be linked to the internal assistance of the Holy Spirit external indications of his revelation, that is to say divine acts, and first and foremost miracles and prophecies, which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are the most certain signs of revelation and are suited to the understanding of all. Hence Moses and the prophets, and especially Christ our lord himself, worked many absolutely clear miracles and delivered prophecies; while of the apostles we read: And they went forth and preached every, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. Again it is written: We have the prophetic word made more sure; you will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place.
Session III, Chapter 3, April 24, 1870

St. Thomas did indeed emphasize miracles, though not in connection with proofs for the existence of God, but rather as proof of the divinity of Christ:
The miracles which Christ worked were a sufficient proof of His Godhead in three respects. First, as to the very nature of the works, which surpassed the entire capability of created power, and therefore could not be done save by Divine power. For this reason the blind man, after his sight had been restored, said (John 9:32-33): "From the beginning of the world it has not been heard, that any man hath opened the eyes of one born blind. Unless this man were of God, he could not do anything."

Secondly, as to the way in which He worked miracles--namely, because He worked miracles as though of His own power, and not by praying, as others do. Wherefore it is written (Luke 6:19) that "virtue went out from Him and healed all." Whereby it is proved, as Cyril says (Comment. in Lucam) that "He did not receive power from another, but, being God by nature, He showed His own power over the sick. And this is how He worked countless miracles." Hence on Mt. 8:16: "He cast out spirits with His word, and all that were sick He healed," Chrysostom says: "Mark how great a multitude of persons healed, the Evangelists pass quickly over, not mentioning one by one . . . but in one word traversing an unspeakable sea of miracles." And thus it was shown that His power was co-equal with that of God the Father, according to John 5:19: "What things soever" the Father "doth, these the Son doth also in like manner"; and, again (John 5:21): "As the Father raiseth up the dead and giveth life, so the Son also giveth life to whom He will."

Thirdly, from the very fact that He taught that He was God; for unless this were true it would not be confirmed by miracles worked by Divine power. Hence it was said (Mark 1:27): "What is this new doctrine? For with power He commandeth the unclean spirits, and they obey Him."
---Summa Theologica, Pt. 3, Q.43, Art. 4

On September 1, 1910 Pope St. Pius X issued the Motu Proprio Sacrorum antistitium, better known as the Oath Against Modernism. It has since been suppressed, but priests were initially required to take this oath. Perhaps the suppression of the oath has mistakenly led some priests to wonder if they may now oppose the teachings which were affirmed in the oath. That might explain why you have met priests who are a little shy of affirming the Church's teaching on miracles, or maybe even deny it. Following is the section which deals with the requirement to believe in miracles:
Secondly, I admit and recognize the external arguments of revelation, that is, divine facts, and especially miracles and prophecies, as very certain signs of the divine origin of the Christian religion; and I hold that these same arguments have been especially accommodated to the intelligence of all ages and men, even of these times.


I would close with the observation of Grosskreutz Chesterton. He took exception to the idea that it is only the unbeliever who can coldly and objectively analyze the evidence for a miracle. I won't deny that my faith gives me the disposition to believe in the evidence presented for those miracles which would be approved by my church. However, I think Chesterton gives us some food for thought when he suggests that an unbeliever might also be subject to his disposition, and even goes a little farther than I necessarily would:
Somehow or other an extraordinary idea has arisen that the disbelievers in miracles consider them coldly and fairly, while believers in miracles accept them only in connection with some dogma. The fact is quite the other way. The believers in miracles accept them (rightly or wrongly) because they have evidence for them. The disbelievers in miracles doubt them (rightly or wrongly) because they have a doctrine against them.
---from Raised From the Dead, True Stories of 400 Resurrection Miracles, TAN Books and Publishers, 1986, by Fr. Albert J. Hebert S.M.

The hour is late for me...I could get the primary source if it bothered anyone that I quoted Chesterton from elsewhere. I don't usually like secondary sources myself so speak up if its a problem to anybody. The author says the quote is from a book I have of Chesterton's called Orthodoxy. I am sure I could find it.

I didn't even read to the end of the thread before I got sidetracked with this. I would be happy to try to answer some of the questions raised in the opening post from a Catholic viewpoint unless someone has already beat me to it. Maybe Wednesday or Thursday.

Regards,

3DOP
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hey Rory, welcome here!! Interesting post...i'll reply more thoughtfully :-) later... Warm regards, Roger
_Roger Morrison
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Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi Rory old friend, you said:

On September 1, 1910 Pope St. Pius X issued the Motu Proprio Sacrorum antistitium, better known as the Oath Against Modernism. It has since been suppressed, but priests were initially required to take this oath. Perhaps the suppression of the oath has mistakenly led some priests to wonder if they may now oppose the teachings which were affirmed in the oath. That might explain why you have met priests who are a little shy of affirming the Church's teaching on miracles, or maybe even deny it. Following is the section which deals with the requirement to believe in miracles:
Quote:
Secondly, I admit and recognize the external arguments of revelation, that is, divine facts, and especially miracles and prophecies, as very certain signs of the divine origin of the Christian religion; and I hold that these same arguments have been especially accommodated to the intelligence of all ages and men, even of these times.


I would close with the observation of Grosskreutz Chesterton. He took exception to the idea that it is only the unbeliever who can coldly and objectively analyze the evidence for a miracle. I won't deny that my faith gives me the disposition to believe in the evidence presented for those miracles which would be approved by my church. However, I think Chesterton gives us some food for thought when he suggests that an unbeliever might also be subject to his disposition, and even goes a little farther than I necessarily would:
Quote:
Somehow or other an extraordinary idea has arisen that the disbelievers in miracles consider them coldly and fairly, while believers in miracles accept them only in connection with some dogma. The fact is quite the other way. The believers in miracles accept them (rightly or wrongly) because they have evidence for them. The disbelievers in miracles doubt them (rightly or wrongly) because they have a doctrine against them.
---from Raised From the Dead, True Stories of 400 Resurrection Miracles, TAN Books and Publishers, 1986, by Fr. Albert J. Hebert S.M.

The hour is late for me...I could get the primary source if it bothered anyone that I quoted Chesterton from elsewhere. I don't usually like secondary sources myself so speak up if its a problem to anybody. The author says the quote is from a book I have of Chesterton's called Orthodoxy. I am sure I could find it.

I didn't even read to the end of the thread before I got sidetracked with this. I would be happy to try to answer some of the questions raised in the opening post from a Catholic viewpoint unless someone has already beat me to it. Maybe Wednesday or Thursday.



I'm not sure IF i'm following you correctly? But, if there is a tendency in Catholicism away from literalism, as it pertains to miracles, i say "Good thing!"

I see absolutely no need to believe, or believe in, miracles to enjoy the benefits of living by the human-relations and self-confidence tenets Jesus expounded to the masses.

It appears that most references to miracles are made in other than Mark. Which suggests the probability of being added later to enhance the story of Jesus. While in ancient times of superstition and mysticism that might have seemed purposeful to building the legend, i respectfully suggest we simply have to look at the principles of justice, charity, economics and conservation HE taught to be freed-by-truth.

Unfortunately it seems the freedom Jesus introduced is yet to be experienced sufficiently to serve humanity as He intended. Seems we still serve Mammon, and talk "God" to our individual & collective destruction.

Ain't no miracle(s) gonna fix that Bro. We jus' gotta get with the truth, like He said... Warm regards, Roger
_JAK
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The Tweaking of Myth-Makers

Post by _JAK »

Valorius wrote:I didn’t mean a Messiah to show us the Way back to the Old Testament, but to that ideal that preceded the Old Testament. When God first “breathed life” into the first human(s), what was He thinking!? He must have had some way to give Adam and Eve clues as to what they were supposed to do. They “fell”. That’s obvious. Something wrong has inflicted human society since forever. So Jesus wanted to “go back” and “undo” that original failure. Jesus could be a second Adam if he could fix Adam’s mistake, do what Adam was supposed to do, not repeat the act that infected humanity with ‘sin’ (a predisposition to selfishness at the cost of others’ welfare). Jesus was willing to sacrifice his own welfare for 'otherishness'. In that sense, his mission was a success; he became "Second Adam".


Let’s begin with what JAK did NOT say in another post of Valorious'.

JAK did not say:

<JAK wrote:
>>"And the earth won't be broken up by meteors or anything.
>>And the stars won't literally fall from out of the sky,
>>because there's no place for them to "fall" to!

What JAK said was a response to that, which read:
How do you know that?

The claim/assertion made was questioned by JAK.

You appear to be indoctrinated by God claims which you did not originate but accept despite the fact that evidence does not support the assertions.

Valorius stated:
I didn’t mean a Messiah to show us the Way back to the Old Testament, but to that ideal that preceded the Old Testament. When God first “breathed life” into the first human(s), what was He thinking!? He must have had some way to give Adam and Eve clues as to what they were supposed to do. They “fell”. That’s obvious.


In the statement, you assume God, underlined above. You also reveal your indoctrination into Christian creationism. No evidence has been presented which establishes God. The claimed entity came out of superstition turned into myth. We can trace this historically. However, it's not done within the narrow, self-contradictory God boxes of religious myths.

Just as there never was an instant English language, there never was a singular “Adam” or a singular “Eve.” (Science) Your comment is Christian mythology and it’s unsupported by present-day knowledge regarding the evolution of living organisms on the earth. While religious myth may have been an attempt to explain, we know today that those ancient notions were ignorant of facts. In short, they were wrong.

Religion (which assumes God) presents no evidence for the assumption. In that assumption not only do religions disagree on an invention of God, a single religion, Christianity, has well-fractured notions of imagined entity. There is no difficulty in documenting that or documenting the evolution of religious notions about gods and the reduction of gods to a singular God with its various versions.

Valorious’ assertion regarding “that ideal that prededed the Old Testament” is speculation absent any presentation of evidence.

The evolution of Human Species followed different stages beginning with the Australopethicus and continuing with homo habilis, homo erectus and homo sapiens. The last stages include those people who lived thousands of years ago in the Palaeolithic and Neolithic Age and are the immediate ancestors of modern man. The discovery of the evolution of man is attributed to two scientists of the 19th century: Sir Charles Lyell and Charles Darwin.

The first and one of the strongest supporters of Darwin's theory was Thomas Henry Huxley (1825-1895). A British anatomist and physical anthropologist, Huxley became the foremost advocate of the Darwinian theory and he was often called 'Darwin's bulldog'. In his book Evidence as to Man's Place in Nature (1863) offered proof for Darwin's thesis of natural selection. He was Professor of the Royal College of Surgeons and President of the Royal Society.

The first humans documented on this website and others evolved from previous life forms (as modern English evolved from earlier languages).

Valorious’ assertion that the Bible is a valid source for the emergence of the human race has been well documented to be false.

There was no “Adam” as Christianity widely claims.

[url]The first human creations[/url] were discovered by accident in 1940 as documented here. And if you advance to the next page in these references, you learn something of the early human civilization.

[url]National Geograph[/url] has discussion and analysis regarding early humans at the above link. As you can see in this article, while archaeologists have some reservations about the data on early humans, responsible science lends no credibility to biblical mythology.

Biblical mythology was speculation. Those who accept it as fact generally demonstrate their own indoctrination from the narrow perspective of some Christian denomination, sect, or cult.

In the above Valorius quote, he makes multiple assumptions which modern scientific research would evidence to be wrong.

Valorius stated:
Something wrong has inflicted human society since forever. So Jesus wanted to “go back” and “undo” that original failure.


“Failure” Tracking your acceptance of the myth, the only failure was that made by God. As you appear to accept the creation myth, “Adam” and “Eve” were no more nor less than what God had created. The fault, then, could not lie with the creation. So what was that “something” that “inflicted…”? From what source did that “something” (Valorious’ claim) come?

Now, Valorious refers to “…has inflicted human society since forever.” Yet, Valorious’ claim is that there were only “Adam” and “Eve” at the beginning. There was no “society” at the “creation” of the first single man and the first single woman. As we read modern archeology and from the links I previously provided, we know the biblical mythology was incorrect.

“So Jesus wanted…” assumes that God made mistakes. Otherwise, why would Jesus want to “undo that original failure”?

The absurdity of religious mythology is well demonstrated by Valorious’ comments as he speculates and converts his speculation into assumed fact.

Then Valorius stated:
Jesus was willing to sacrifice his own welfare for 'otherishness'. In that sense, his mission was a success; he became "Second Adam".


That’s hardly in any mainstream of Christianity.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (And of course that in itself is an example of human sacrifice demonstrating the uglyness of the Christian God.)

While few Christian myths interpret that their God made a mistake, as they accept the doctrine that everything that was made was made by God, the rational (reasoned) conclusion is that mistakes were made by God. That entity is the creator of "all."

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.”

Note the word “all.” The fact that humans discovered germs and disease later does not absolve God of the responsibility for creation of all.

I’m not advocating here, but challenging any religious myth or interpretation of religious myth as reliable or reasonable. Yet, Valorious clearly not only accepts religious myth, he also applies his own interpretation and regards his interpretation as reliable analysis.

It’ is not. Since interpretations vary and since the ancient religious scripts are themselves contradictory, pontificating such as is done here by Valorious makes for unreliable claims.

The principles of sound analysis based on the best science we have is superior to any tweaking of interpretations or words from ancient myths.

JAK
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi JAK, nice to see you back. You have taken on a real challenging "mission" to convince "believers" their beliefs are in 'wrongs'.

A friend said to me a short time ago, "I was brought up to believe in the Bible. So generally I did. Then I began reading it. Unbelievable! How could anyone believe such crap?" He's in his 80's. Never to old to learn. IF/WHEN not too deeply indoctrinated. Warm regards, Roger
_JAK
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Your Thinking, Roger

Post by _JAK »

Roger Morrison wrote:Hi JAK, nice to see you back. You have taken on a real challenging "mission" to convince "believers" their beliefs are in 'wrongs'.

A friend said to me a short time ago, "I was brought up to believe in the Bible. So generally I did. Then I began reading it. Unbelievable! How could anyone believe such crap?" He's in his 80's. Never to old to learn. IF/WHEN not too deeply indoctrinated. Warm regards, Roger


Hi Roger,

Interesting conversation with your friend. You have a good technique often in asking questions rather than writing analysis.

You have been reading MB longer than I have. What’s your sense of some ratio of hard-core believers to those who at least demonstrate some genuine skeptical review of religious dogma?

To what extent have you seen honest dialogue as opposed to sarcastic, humorous, or non-response?

JAK
_Roger Morrison
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Re: Your Thinking, Roger

Post by _Roger Morrison »

JAK wrote:
Roger Morrison wrote:Hi JAK, nice to see you back. You have taken on a real challenging "mission" to convince "believers" their beliefs are in 'wrongs'.

A friend said to me a short time ago, "I was brought up to believe in the Bible. So generally I did. Then I began reading it. Unbelievable! How could anyone believe such crap?" He's in his 80's. Never to old to learn. IF/WHEN not too deeply indoctrinated. Warm regards, Roger


Hi Roger,

Interesting conversation with your friend. You have a good technique often in asking questions rather than writing analysis.

You have been reading MB longer than I have. What’s your sense of some ratio of hard-core believers to those who at least demonstrate some genuine skeptical review of religious dogma?

To what extent have you seen honest dialogue as opposed to sarcastic, humorous, or non-response?

JAK


Thanks for your compliment! To your question: Quickly, and off the top of my head, I will say about 70+/-% genuinely skeptical, in varying degrees. Leaving 30+/-% as firm believers in enough elements that they pay tithing. A smaller % regularly--weekly--attend Temple things.

Having run the Mormon gamut, hands-on/feet-first :-), and being intimate with many members over several decades, it is my seriously considered opinion (MSCO) that even the most devoted have moments of question when pressed by unfortunate circumstances. I think 'hope' might be more common in the ranks than 'faith'. Few mountains moved.

On MDB, and boards such as this, i think we exchange with a small % of Mormons. More without the 'means' than with them; whether materially, skillfully or with the disposition to discuss/argue.

Personally i find all here most interesting and, generally enjoy the exchanges. Mocha, although we don't dialogue much, has to be one nice guy. OTOH, i find the sarcasm and vindictiveness surprising. While not to my liking, it does reveal one's character. Something that does pique my curiousity: what do the non-posters think? Many more readers than writers.

Maybe others will add more?? Warm regards, Roger
_Mephitus
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Post by _Mephitus »

My my, a year later and this thread is still active. how interesting. Very intriguiing responces too considering i haven't looked at this thread in almost a year now.
One nice thing is, ze game of love is never called on account of darkness - Pepe Le Pew
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Sono_hito wrote:My my, a year later and this thread is still active. how interesting. Very intriguiing responces too considering I haven't looked at this thread in almost a year now.


Sooo, Sono hito, nice to see you back... Whatcha got to say? eh ;-) Warm regards, Roger
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