What is the Miracle of Forgiveness? (revisited)

[_Inconceivable]

I'm frustrated with your posts, Gaz. You quote what I refer to as if I've never read it. I get it. I just don't accept it anymore.

Anyone recall what we were talking about before the thread got clogged with irrelevancy?

[_Roger Morrison]

I'm frustrated with your posts, Gaz. You quote what I refer to as if I've never read it. I get it. I just don't accept it anymore.

Anyone recall what we were talking about before the thread got clogged with irrelevancy?

But Kimball said that the road to forgiveness is a long and difficult journey. He made it one for me, because I believed him (and shot well beyond the mark). According to the Book of Mormon, it certainly is not. I think he (and most of the leaders) never understood that forgiveness is a seperate issue from the ripple effect the sin has set in motion.

The sons of Mosiah labored all their days righting the wrongs they had done to the church - after they witnessed the Miracle of Forgiveness. Not before.

The Book of Mormon (AND the Bible) teach that it isn't what we've done in the past, it's who we are now, after we are changed in Christ. I think the "cupcake is licked" to those who have been taught to think only carnally and not necessarily spiritually.

How can a person say they are spiritually connected with God if they have yet to experience this Miracle for themselves?

Thoughts?

I think Kimball might have had in mind those who keep "falling-off-THEIR-wagon" for whatever reasons. However, i do not think it is as dastardly as he suggests. Whenever i've "fallen-off" i climb back on joyously, better and wiser...

We must remember SWK was conditioned in a time when there was little joy in a life that was a constant battle between "God" & Satan for the souls of humans. One could never "let their guard down" as depraved creatures, or as sin-proned as LDS modified our mortal condition...

Remedy was, and still is, to those so conditioned to believe: Attend meetings of like minded folks to reinforce, not dispell, the darkness of their thinking; perform rituals to purify ones self; obey edicts claimed to eradicate weakness with "breastplates of righteousness" worn by the faithful; follow THE leader(s) who are ordained to, "never lead one astray"...

And, so they don't--from LDSism! Keeping one corralled in an environment that demands obedience and subservience; where conditional-love allows priveledge to those who accept the restrictive demands of membership. They have their rewards! So be it...

Until they become discomforted by the very conditions which once provided their comfort. When/if that happens then possibly some will have "a difficult journey" out of their confines--whatever, and wherever, those confines might be. Others have no difficulty... The cost of "leaving home". Encouraged by some; discouraged by others.

Just the way it is. Rewards if one stays. Rewards if/when one leaves... Free agency... Warm regards, Roger

[_Jason Bourne]

I am perfectly aware that the tone of the book was changed, as well as a key piece of doctrine after a revelation was received that changed it. When it was originally edited it was done so by other General authorities includeing Spencer W, Kimball.

The first edition of the book was published without Pres.McKay's permission. He was not happy. He had Elder's Peterson and Romney review it and they found over 1000 errors. Pres. McKay considered repudiating the book but worried about damaging Elder McConkie's status. He did not want a second editions published but when Pres. McKay feel ill Elder McConkie published the second edition anyway with corrections. When Elder McConkie became an apostle the book gained even more popularity and even has been viewed as fairly authorities by many members of the Church.

If what I have said is incorrect, please explain it to me.

Justification takes place on entering into the covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. See AoF 3 and 4, D&C 20:1-38 and D&C 76. Also read Mosiah 27 & 28, 1-4 and Alma 5. Sanctification is all that comes after including, in my opinion, temple ordinances. One can know they are heirs of salvation and exaltation in this life. Also, I recommend Steven Robinson's Believing Christ and Following Christ. Two great book that helped change my life an throw off some of the dogmatic views I held about justification and sanctification.

[_Z]

I'll admit I didn't read everyone's posts completely. But I just wanted to add my own experiences to the pot.

First off, I read "Miracle of Foregiveness" during my own period of repentance. And I didn't like it. In fact, I have to honestly say that I don't agree with a large chunk of it. I'll admit I don't have an awesome justification for this just yet but as of now I chalk it up to the "prophets are human too" principle. But more importantly, it didn't really help me.

But luckily I did have a born again moment as you described. Though mine wasn't so much a single moment as a transition over about 3 days of struggling, pondering, praying, and reading the scriptures. When it was over I definitely felt my sins lifted from me and literally felt my desire to sin in this area completely taken away from me. I felt and still feel very discintly like a new person. I wasn't expecting anything of the kind to happen but it was a drastic and almost startling change. I look back on who I was and have a very hard time beleiving that it was me who thought those thoughts or said those words. To this day that once area of weakness is now a great strength.

I still spoke with my bishop about it and he was very understanding. He in fact did not subject me to church discipline, which would normally be in order under the circumstances, but after a long conversation in which I described my experiences he said it was obvious that I had repented and I went about my business as a new person in Christ.

This doesn't mean I've been perfect by any means, and I've since had several experiences like it in other areas of my life, though not nearly as comprehensive as was that first experience.

And I should say also that I have heard many many similar stories, and I've ovserved similar changes in others through my service as a missionary. If you live in Utah that may be why you haven't heard much of it. I'm not sure why but its not discussed as often out here. When I was back home in California, or on my mission in Missouri, I heard "born again" stories much more often.

With that said I will say that though I think Pres. Benson's book would do well to emphasize these aspects of forgiveness more strongly, there are certain types of sins that I think his method could be effective for. Though when I read it I kept feeling like it didn't really apply to my situation.

[_Inconceivable]

..With that said I will say that though I think Pres. Benson's book would do well to emphasize these aspects of forgiveness more strongly, there are certain types of sins that I think his method could be effective for. Though when I read it I kept feeling like it didn't really apply to my situation.

Thanks Z.

you mean Pres Kimball, right? Benson's "Witness and a Warning" had a chapter called "Born of God" that is embarrassingly similar to what I have posted. I'm just hung on the dizzying double meaning of the chapter's name.

I can identify with what you describe as being forgiven.

The sin I sought forgiveness for was what influenced my reading of Kimball's book. It did take years for me to forgive myself because Kimball doctrine reminded me ad nausium that somehow I knew better than the great unwashed and this made what I did much more shameful and less forgiveable. Even though I asked and begged for forgiveness from God I was brought to believe that maybe I couldn't deserve it yet. Repentance was a miserable time - a long time.

Maybe I would just keep washing dishes and mopping floors at ward socials until an apostle would reveal my peace back (and he never did).

A year or so later on the mission I was teaching an amazingly Christlike woman that wanted to believe in forgiveness but just could not forgive herself. It was only then that I began to realize how ridiculous it was to harbor resentment toward myself. It was then that I began to get some peace back. It was many years later that I began to recognize the event called the Miracle of Forgiveness.

Quite honestly, I am looking for the threads of truth woven within a religeon I thought I knew to be true. I supposed I had been given so many spiritual affirmations throughout my life. Now I am painfully attempting to refine their true meanings and still have something remaining that is as good as the peace I have occasionally felt previous.

Speaking of peace, I've never felt anymore peace within the temple than without. I've never understood why such a distracting place could have that effect on anyone.

[_Z]

Yeah I definitely meant Pres Kimball. Sorry I was thinking of Pres Benson when I was writing that post because I was writing about prophetic words I didn't agree with.

It sounds like you're going through a spiritually confusing time. I can relate as I went through a similar period for about 8 years or so. During that time my faith in the LDS church failed and along with it my faith in a supreme being altogether. When you doubt the church's doctrines, you doubt the authenticity of the "feelings of the spirit" you felt concerning those doctrines, which leads you to question whether the spirit exists at all, and if it doesn't then how can we know anything about God?

I actually felt okay about it for a while. I was living in a kind of denial (this is not to say that all athiests are like this) but I couldn't leave well enough alone. Once I really tried to dig into the meaning of my life in my now Godless world I became severaly depressed. I studied secular philosophies voraciously and tried to associate with like-minded people and see what made them tick. But it was to no avail. I couldn't shake the thought that if when I died I was nothing then what the hell does it matter at all what I do in this life? If I die now or die 60 years from now with copious accomplishments it is the same result, nothing. So my study of philosophy gave way to phychiatric medications and lifestyle changes that revolved more around instant gratification than anything else. But the emptyness increased until, after several years of what I can only describe as excrutiating emotional suffering, I attempted suicide several times. I might add that I was saved from death on these occasions only by fairly miraculous events.

Anyway, after talks with concerned friends and family I decided to give religion one last hurrah, figuring that if it didn't work this time then I'd steer my car off a cliff and be done with it. I started with all my friends' religions first. I studied hinduism and then islam pretty intensely for a year or so, then went to buddhism (which I liked quite a bit actually), then shifted back into christianity and finally grudgingly revisited the Book of Mormon. It was during my revisiting of Mormonism that I had the "Born again" experience I described in my previous post.

I'm not trying to "bring you back to the fold" or anything. Everyone has to make their own spiritual journey. But those are just the facts of my experience. Now that I think about it that was way too much information and probably isn't even relevant, but now that I wrote all that I'm not deleting it. Since I'm new to the forums you can consider that my self-introduction.

I would also say that in addition to the "witnerss and a warning" chapter you read, there are plenty of GA statments that define being born of God as exactly what I've described and what you've been talking about. In fact, I just checked a few books from my library and every major LDS book from "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith" to"Mormon Doctrine" described being born again as an event distinct from baptism in which someone's entire nature is changed such that they no longer have the desire to commit sin and are a new person in Christ.

Since my own reconversion I've learned that the true doctrines of the gospel are mutilated by the general church membership and even many church leaders, more often than not. And I mean literally more often than not. I'm very much reconverted to the doctrines of the gospel, though my conversion to the church is still lacking. But I don't really have a desire to change that. I actually think my priorities are better placed now than they've ever been.

I guess like you're attempting to do I feel I've discovered real, honest, threads of truth in the doctrines of the LDS church which I am now holding on to and attempting to build upon, though there are still alot of things I'm trying to reconcile. Incidentally, I've always struggled a bit with the temple myself. It doesn't scare me or anything, and I'm not sure I'd say its been a distracting place for me, but nearly all my major spiritual experiences have occured somewhere else. And I have yet to feel like I've learned anything that's significantly altered my understanding of the gospel. But I haven't discounted it yet.

Sorry again for the length of the post. The lateness of the hour and the glorious anonymity of the internet have combined to make me really wordy tonight.

[_Roger Morrison]

Good AM Z, 'received notice' of activity here, so here-i-am. I don't want to be intrusive even though i might appear to be. But your above post, and "Inconceivable's", is/are most compelling... You say:

Since my own reconversion I've learned that the true doctrines of the gospel are mutilated by the general church membership and even many church leaders, more often than not. And I mean literally more often than not. I'm very much reconverted to the doctrines of the gospel, though my conversion to the church is still lacking. But I don't really have a desire to change that. I actually think my priorities are better placed now than they've ever been.

I guess like you're attempting to do I feel I've discovered real, honest, threads of truth in the doctrines of the LDS church which I am now holding on to and attempting to build upon, though there are still alot of things I'm trying to reconcile. Incidentally, I've always struggled a bit with the temple myself. It doesn't scare me or anything, and I'm not sure I'd say its been a distracting place for me, but nearly all my major spiritual experiences have occured somewhere else. And I have yet to feel like I've learned anything that's significantly altered my understanding of the gospel. But I haven't discounted it yet.

Without 'knowing' i assume you to be a BIC (born-in-church;-) With that in mind, BICs have FAR more difficulty extracating them selves from LDSism. As a RC Priest(?) is said to have said, "...give us a child to the age of 6+/- (?) & they are ours forever..." Applies to most indoctrinational institutions, generally speaking. In many cases when they do 'leave' it is impossible to "leave" it ALL, satisfactually behind... Soooo, returning often brings them a comfort from a new perspective of tolerance of their returned to environment.

Therein they find:

reconverted to the doctrines of the gospel, though my conversion to the church is still lacking. But I don't really have a desire to change that. I actually think my priorities are better placed now than they've ever been.

I will say that is a positive position, for you... You further state:

I've discovered real, honest, threads of truth in the doctrines of the LDS church which I am now holding on to and attempting to build upon, though there are still alot of things I'm trying to reconcile

Another positive understanding. I respectfully suggest however, without "threads of truth" LDSism, 7DAs, Scientology, Catholicism & all other philosophies--Religious or otherwise--would have died on the vine. "Prove all things, and hold fast to what is true." I further suggest, when one takes a "fast-hold of truth" they have taken it from the 'container' and it's theirs to carry forever through life. One might even say, "thanks Container! You're not an ALL-bad Guy!" :-)

"...trying to reconcile" is more problematic, for some than for others. Some leave BITTER. Others stay submitted but DISCONCERTED. Others leave WISER for the experienc. Others stay for the COMFORT provided. Rationally, there is nothing "wrong" with any of those choices. Irrationally, through religious indoctrination, such choices impinge mortality with the supposition of immortality. This places persons who have not totally found Universal truths in discomfort, whatever their decision, generally speaking.

Confusing to a lot of folks is the FACT that "Universal Truths" are to be found in both Science & Religion! "What!!!" Herein jumps the Sectarian dogmatist: "Of course. And, MY Church has more truth than yer church!" With such braggadocio comes the subtle whisper, to 'those with ears,' "It ain't necessarily so." BEWARE, those who lie in wait to deceive!

My search/study/experience leads me to have more 'faith' in science than in religion. ATST, i 'believe' the humanitarian and social-justice teachings of Jesus, and others who promulgate likewise. I 'think' humanity is slowly coming to resolutions of the conflict between these major influences--secular & religion--to a realization of the dreams of old-men, peace & goodwill...

What does all of this have to do with, "The Miracle of Forgiveness"? I respectfully suggest, "God" cannot but forgive/acknowledge a direction/habit change. There is no retribution involved. There are no rituals, and/or oaths involved. The 'covenant' is a simple Universal principle, attributed to the laws of nature rather than to ancient concepts of an arbitrary, prejudicial "God"--that NEVER existed. That some sects continue to teach such ignorance--mixed with their 'good-stuff'--is little less than abominable when the more susceptable to such indoctrination suffer, and forfeit the quality of life promised by the simple uncomplicated application of the, "Two New Commandments"... Mortal morality is where peace is found... Don't sacrifice yourself for immortality that demands obedience, and subsevience, to edicts that contravene the very principles of justice, honour and integrity spoken in the Sermon On The Mount.

As this old-guy sees it... Warm regards, Roger

[_Inconceivable]

Thanks guys. I'm torn between your two frames of minds.

One thing I'm begining to realize is that I don't have to harbor guilt until the church, or even God to gives me their absolvance before I forgive myself.

Subconsiously, I wasn't allowed to let the guilt go until after I went to the bishop and confessed, getting some of that inspired counsel regarding penance because somehow I offended the church as well.

Because there was a specific order in the "steps of repentance", I assumed that forgiving myself always came last, and only then could I let go of the guilt - always waiting for an external green light. Psychologically, I always felt better walking out of the bishop's office because it was natural for me to think I could finally let it go.

If Jesus and his promises are real, I can see how this way of thinking could place limits, restrictions and distractions on witnessing His healing power. I think I was one of it's victims.

[_Z]

I think that mindsert definitely is harmful, but I don't think its necessarily the mindset the LDS church is supposed to be encouraging.

Honerstly I think the church went through a period starting with about Josreph Fielding Smith or david o mckay and ending with Pres Benson, where everything became much more authoritarian, and specific processes were laid down for all spiritual phenomenon. You know it used to be that missionaries had no "discussions" whatsoever but their instruction eventually evolved into a memorized speech devoid of real personal testimony. Anyway, all of those things are happily, slowly shifting back at this point.

In the instance of repentance its my understanding that the true role of a bishop in our repentance process to be nothing more than a guide. He's someone whose been there and done that and helped many people just like you. He's there to help you understand what the Lord is telling you and to administer church discipline if its necessary, not for punishment as much as to keep us from damning ourselves further. And I think alot of bishops are treating it all that way now.

I really appreciated Roger's comments. I thought they were very insightful. And I think that perspective is very valid and would likely be one I would hold were it not for one major experience. I left a few elements out of my reconversion story because I was trying not to get all "Mormon" on inconceivable and just talk more about general reconversion and being born again.

In reality, the thing that pushed me over was that for the first time that I was aware, I really felt the influence of the Holy Ghost while reading the Book of Mormon. Yes there are definitely threads of truth in other religions, and I still love studying other religions, and I felt "the spirit" when reading the tao te ching and the koran, but at that time I understood the "feelings of the spirit" as just a purely emotional feeling that showed that what I was reading meshed with my world view. And I think alot of the time that's all that feeling is honestly.

But when I had my whole born again experience I felt the spirit in a way that I hadn't before. It wasn't just a tingly feeling up my spine but a real rush of new information and knowledge. Seemingly impossible questions I'd been grappling with were answered. Questions so metaphysical I didn't know how to phrase them were answered with answers that likewise were beyond my ability to articulate. Along with that came the knowledge that I was forgiven and changed. It was the rush of knowledge itself that gave me the born again experience and in many ways seemed to alter my way of thinking to make me a new person.

Similarly, I don't see my religion in any way close to the same way I saw it before. The Mormon faith I practiced as a child (yes I was born in the church) seems alien and very different than what I'm doing now.

So I guess that's the thing. While I found truth everywhere it was through the Book of Mormon that I was changed. Once again, I'm not trying to convert anybody, but that's definitely the way it happened for me. And since that time I've continued to study other religions (mostly buddhism these days) and while they've enhanced my understanding of spiritual things none has ever helped me experience that true spirit feeling I got with the Book of Mormon. And I've felt the real influence of the spirit since then as well, and all instances have been associated with Mormon doctrine and practice.

And so excuse me if I insinuate that "MY Church has more truth than yer church!" because while I appreciate the universal truth found in so many beleif systems, my personal spiritual journey has led me in one direction much more often than the others. And I'm aware that my being born in the church could have biased me towards it. I'm very aware of that fact and always have been. But my spiritual feelings are palpable, seem to come from outside me, and are very clear. I'm still aware that there's a possibility that brain chemistry could be the culprit, but if I beleive in the sovereignity of my conciousness in any way, or if I beleive the spirit is really accessible in any way, I have to beleive in this. Because otherwise I'm back where I was before, and I might as well be dead.

[_Inconceivable]

Very inciteful and thought provoking post, Z. It really does hit close to home.

In all soberness, how in the world did you get past the truth of the history, or at least the appearance of evil? How do you believe God made that right with you? I am unable to see a probable transition or even resolution.

Hence, my screen name, etc.

On the same note, I never had a mind to study church history so that I might reveal blemishes or seek out ways to justify unrighteous behavior. I simply began to with the intent to better know the heros I would have gladly died for. I was devastated.