Commentary on Richard and GoodK's Debate

[_GoodK]

The Crimean War began because Russian Czar Nicholas 1 claimed the right to "protect" Orthodox Christians under Turkish rule.

[_GoodK]

I also think the wars I listed above, which were no doubt Christian caused wars, are much more telling about Christianity than the two examples of an atheist killing people for Communist or political causes says about atheism.

[_richardMdBorn]

How is this the case. What theist killed this number of people?

See GoodK's excellent list. There were far more than a mere four theists doing all the killing.

To have the top two mass murderers be atheists is not good evidence that "atheists still have the upper-hand in the morality department, by far."

Guess what? The top two mass murderers also breathed oxygen. Therefore, by your (and most other theists') logic, breathing oxygen leads to mass murder.

It's hard to take your last argument seriously (just like your comment about the supposed lack of relationship between communism and atheism). And I see no support here for your assertion that "atheists still have the upper-hand in the morality department, by far."

[_GoodK]

How can atheism, which is the word we use for people who don't believe in any of today's God's have anything to do with an "idealogy that seeks to establish a classless society based on common ownership of property and the means of production."

[_marg]

It's hard to take your last argument seriously (just like your comment about the supposed lack of relationship between communism and atheism). And I see no support here for your assertion that "atheists still have the upper-hand in the morality department, by far."

And where is your argument Richard to support your belief, that there is a cause and effect relationship between atheism of Hitler, Stalin, and others you mentioned with the things they had done as leaders and not just a correlation?

[_Dr. Shades]

When it rains, people drive slower. When it rains, there are more accidents. Therefore, driving slow causes accidents.

(So it goes with the Hitler/Stalin/Mao/atheism thing.)

[_richardMdBorn]

Not only are atheists really evil killers, but the NINE crusades, thirty years war, Crimean War, the witch hunts, inquisition, the constant extermination of the Jews, and the massive graves the Spanish missionaries filled with millions of "savages" say nothing about Christianity. Nothing.

Hi GoodK,

Sorry it's taken me a while to respond. I've been busy at work and am writing a magazine article. Do you think that there was any rationale for the Crusades? Given what's happened today in India, they don't seem so bad. What do you think about Sam Huntington's book The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order.

[_dartagnan]

Let's see. Out of all the Atheists who have come and gone, that's only a mere four who have committed atrocities.

Per capita, I'd say that makes the atheists' track record pretty darn good.

Per capita? You're looking at it the wrong way. There are tens of thousands of theistic political figures throughout history who didn't commit crimes against humanity. How many atheistic political figures fall into this category? Can you name a single one?'

As a percentage, atheistic dictators have been far more likely to commit genocide than religious ones. This is a matter of historical fact. How many theistic dictators have existed in history? Perhaps hundreds, yet how many of these can you name who have been solely responsible for mass murdering their own people? Even if you could name a dozen, which I doubt you could, this would constitute less than 1% of the whole group.'

Now on the other hand, how many atheistic dictators have existed in history? Hell, the ones listed above might very well constitute the majority and just look at what they've done. Calling Hitler Christian is a joke because he rejected Christian principles, as did Stalin. Attending Christian institutions during childhood years was expected and in many cases a requisite during the early 20th century, but that hardly insures Christian devotion or behavior.
'
Brenton's examples of the inquisition is misleading, as is the usual example of the crusades. Millions were not killed during the inquisitions -about 1% of those tried were actually killed and these were crimes against the State, not the Church- and in fact the inquisitions were considered enlightened when compared to usual forms of judicial enforcement in the day. But this requires understanding more than the usual lore from the anti-religious.

That's only three people. Four if you count Pol Pot. Four. Out of all the millions of atheists who have come and gone, it's plainly obvious that those four represent not a pattern or an expectation but an aberration.

But there haven't been "millions" of atheist dictators. You're conflating atheist rulers with atheists in general in order to knock the figure down dramatically.

By those odds, atheists still have the upper-hand in the morality department, by far.

Actually, the exact opposite is true given a proper understanding of the statistical data. Even in our modern secular society atheism represents only a small fraction of the population. I think it is somewhere around 9%. And atheism was much less common before the 21st century. Yet, it seems that whenever an atheist dictator would raise his ugly head, genocide followed. Just out of curiosity, can you name a single atheistic dictator who didn't commit atrocities as these?

And where is your argument Richard to support your belief, that there is a cause and effect relationship between atheism of Hitler, Stalin, and others you mentioned with the things they had done as leaders and not just a correlation?

You haven't been paying attention to the sources provided by CC. A few months ago I discussed this at length and provided sources proving Stalin had a specific mission goal of destroying churches as he viewed them as a threat to his system [sound familiar?]. He followed through with his intentions and murdered tens of millions of theists simply because they believed in God.

[_dartagnan]

I guess you missed the Ben Stein movie. It is all about godlessness, Shades. These guys are convinced that the root problem is godlessness, not fanaticism.

I'd say the problem is a belief that morality doesn't exist or that we can create our own morality. Without morals, immoral behavior is more likely to follow. Without moral teachings, immoral behavior is more likely to follow.

Religions may be many things that are not flattering, but they generally offer moral teaching. Absolute equality, universal human rights, etc, are all inspired by Judeo-Christian principles. This is why none of this could have existed in Communism. Religious institutaions, whatever their faults, try to instill a sense of morality via systematic theology, whereas atheism offers absolutely nothing in that department. So it is hardly surprising to see such a high percentage of atheistic political figures taking advantage of their positions of power, and give into so many temptations that are not tempered with religious/moral principles.

[_antishock8]

God-believers have killed over 40 million Hindus in the sub-continent. God-believers have killed an estimated 500 million non-believers over the course of Islamic conquest in an attempt to bring people under dar el Islam (spelling, I'm sure). So, I'm not sure you're entirely accurate to state, Dartagnan, that atheist leaders are more likely or more inclined to commit mass atrocities. I think it's ideology which drives this one, more than anything. Whether or you ideology has a god-slant to it, or promotes "change", it's all the same: People trying to create a utopian state through murder.