Dr. Peterson question about MormonTimes article

[_Daniel Peterson]

So sorry to butt in, but... if we are to rank the hierarchy of the importance of all of Joseph's visions/revelations, it seems like the most important ones are the ones that have no witnesses. In addition to the lack thereof at the First Vision, who was the witness to the revelation on plural marriage? and where is the revelation that restored the higher priesthood?

I'm not sure on what grounds you rank the revelation on plural marriage as more important than the experience of the Three Witnesses (shared by Joseph Smith with Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer) or the restoration of keys in the Kirtland Temple (shared with Oliver Cowdery) or the revelation on the three degrees of glory (shared with Sidney Rigdon), or even the revelation of the design of the Kirtland Temple (shared with Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams).

And you seem to have shifted your ground somewhat when you ask "where is the revelation that restored the higher priesthood?" The question was whether or not Joseph Smith's centrally important revelations were often shared. And, though there is no written text of what was said during that experience, it was, in fact, shared (with Oliver Cowdery), just as the earlier experience with John the Baptist was shared (with Oliver Cowdery).

I don't think "continuance" is a word that could be applied to him, once he made decisions that arguably put him off the "acceptable to God" path (Fanny entered the picture).

You're free to argue that, if you choose. (I know that it's your position.) I would argue to the contrary.

I'm not following this. Branch = ? Root = ? Plant = ?

I don't know what your difficulty is. Some issues are more essential or fundamental than other issues are. This is, I think, fairly obvious in lots of areas, not just with regard to Mormonism.

If I'm thinking of buying a used motorboat, and the speedometer doesn't work, that might be a concern. If there's a large hole in the hull, though, that's a much more fundamental issue. I won't be focusing, at that point, on the faulty speedometer.

So all opinions are valid?

Huh? I've said nothing whatever about that subject.

But no, just for the record, I don't believe that all opinions are valid.

My mileage and judgment varies, of course.

The odometer may be broken. Whether there's a hole in the hull, though, I'm in no position to determine.

[_harmony]

I'm not sure on what grounds you rank the revelation on plural marriage as more important than the experience of the Three Witnesses (shared by Joseph Smith with Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer) or the restoration of keys in the Kirtland Temple (shared with Oliver Cowdery) or the revelation on the three degrees of glory (shared with Sidney Rigdon).

Of course it's more important. It changes the entire paradigm of exaltation.

I consider exaltation to be pretty important, in the grand scheme of things (a.k.a. the Plan of Salvation).

Again, your mileage may vary.

The question was whether or not Joseph Smith's centrally important revelations were often shared. And, though there is no written text of what was said during that experience, it was, in fact, shared (with Oliver Cowdery), just as the earlier experience with John the Baptist was shared (with Oliver Cowdery).

If there is no written text, it's kinda hard to believe anything occurred.

My mileage and judgment varies, of course.

The odometer may be broken. Whether there's a hole in the hull, though, I'm in no position to determine.

You can still make me laugh.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I'm not sure on what grounds you rank the revelation on plural marriage as more important than the experience of the Three Witnesses (shared by Joseph Smith with Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer) or the restoration of keys in the Kirtland Temple (shared with Oliver Cowdery) or the revelation on the three degrees of glory (shared with Sidney Rigdon), or even the revelation of the design of the Kirtland Temple (shared with Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams).

Of course it's more important. It changes the entire paradigm of exaltation.

More than the Book of Mormon did? More than the restoration of the sealing power did? More than the concept of temples did? More than the revelation of the three degrees of glory did? (Is the Mormon "paradigm of exaltation" even conceivable without the notions of a "celestial kingdom" and being "as gods"?)

I consider exaltation to be pretty important, in the grand scheme of things (a.k.a. the Plan of Salvation).

So do I.

Again, your mileage may vary.

Plainly, it does.

If there is no written text, it's kinda hard to believe anything occurred.

That seems to me a complete and painfully obvious non sequitur.

Whether a written transcript exists or not has precisely nothing to do with whether or not the event occurred.

You can still make me laugh.

Humor makes twisting the knife more enjoyable for both me and my victim. Mwahahahaha.

[_Wisdom Seeker]

Has it really all come down to this: if you believe it, then it's real?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Has it really all come down to this: if you believe it, then it's real?

I don't think harmony was saying that, but you'll have to ask her.

[_Wisdom Seeker]

Has it really all come down to this: if you believe it, then it's real?

I don't think harmony was saying that, but you'll have to ask her.

I was just making an observation on the attitude of many-many members I know. What was once a strong conviction has turned into a simple hope that God is not going to throw Mormon's into hell and instead will be rewarded for at least trying.

Not only are these things expressed to me personally by active members, but is evident in FT meeting by the things people are saying and are not saying. I don't think I have deviated from the basic premise of this thread.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I was just making an observation on the attitude of many-many members I know. What was once a strong conviction has turned into a simple hope that God is not going to throw Mormon's into hell and instead will be rewarded for at least trying.

Not only are these things expressed to me personally by active members, but is evident in FT meeting by the things people are saying and are not saying.

I can't recall ever encountering that.

I don't think I have deviated from the basic premise of this thread.

I can't see any connection at all, honestly.

[_Wisdom Seeker]

But there are also intellectual issues, matters of history and fact, that can weaken or destroy faith. Here, too, the Spirit is essential. However, troubled believers can't always dispose of their doubts simply by redoubling their efforts or dismiss them for the sake of believing family and friends. They must be faced and, in some sense at least, dealt with.

I can't see any connection at all, honestly.

I think I was pointing out what I see as a lack of spirit. Being quite active in my LDS ward I can not deny that rarely will you see someone outside the same 20 people who on any given F&T meeting will stand up. When being totally honest with my LDS friends about my concerns, I will, with some get an honest declaration that their spiritual persona is much greater than what they truly feel.

They too are troubled believers, who have devoted too much time and energy in their religious affiliation to meet the matters head on. They have no idea what FAIR or who DCP is and they will simply dismiss anything critical of the church. While I can't get into their brains and determine exactly what they are thinking, I get the sense that most feel that if they believe and they act in good and kind ways they will find their Celestial Kingdom in the life to come.

[_harmony]

I think I was pointing out what I see as a lack of spirit. Being quite active in my LDS ward I can not deny that rarely will you see someone outside the same 20 people who on any given F&T meeting will stand up. When being totally honest with my LDS friends about my concerns, I will, with some get an honest declaration that their spiritual persona is much greater than what they truly feel.

I have observed the same thing, while being told I (and my fellow Relief Society sisters) are all spiritual midgets. It's as if spirituality is scored by how many tears are spilled in any given meeting. The more tears, the more spiritual, which is, of course, baloney.

Others hope desperately that they will somehow someday feel what they assume everyone else is feeling, so they seek and seek and seek and seek... and can't bear the idea that there is simply nothing to find. Not that anyone else is feeling anything either, of course; it's just that some wear a facade better than others do.

They too are troubled believers, who have devoted too much time and energy in their religious affiliation to meet the matters head on.

Decades... entire lives... generations. And those who seem most fully vested are those who know the least. (I'm thinking of my HC's wife, who was absolutely incredulously furious when she found out her husband would have other wives in the CK. No, I didn't tell her, but it was in my dining room that she brought it up. He obviously knew; she obviously hadn't. There is no excuse for that kind of slap upside the head).

They have no idea what FAIR or who DCP is and they will simply dismiss anything critical of the church.

I know a few who have no idea there is such a thing as criticism of the church... they are that insulated against the outside world. Nothing penetrates.

While I can't get into their brains and determine exactly what they are thinking, I get the sense that most feel that if they believe and they act in good and kind ways they will find their Celestial Kingdom in the life to come.

Where there is hope, there is survival. Wouldn't it be great if they actually acted good and kind without thought of personal reward? I know a few of those, too.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Wouldn't it be great if they actually acted good and kind without though of personal reward?

I doubt very much that everybody around you is really as morally inferior as you portray them.