jon wrote:....That's what the best available evidence tells us happened...
opinion and a highly suspect conclusion. The best available evidence actually confirms that it was translated by the "gift and power of God".
Less opinionated and less suspect than the conclusion that the Church is true. There is no evidence that god exists, much less that god's gift and power was used to translate anthing. Get evidence. After all, the truth will set you free--free of hokie Mormonism.
jon wrote:I find it a little bit two faced (disingenuous?) to, on the one hand disparage the accounts of the witnesses to the translation process method involving Joseph, a rock and a hat, whilst on the other hand, accepting at face value the witnesses to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. This lack of consistency is EXACTLY the point of the thread.
This is a problem. Almost as big as losing the most important revelation known to man. And then compounding it by closing the books.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
Primary teacher to librarian: may i have the brown seer stone and Joseph Smith replica top hat? i am teachng the 8 year olds about how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon.
Librarian: Oh you are so thoughtful to do that- when i ws growing up they just showed us a picture of Joseph Smith with the gold plates on the table with a blanket hung between himself and OC. You will be blessed for presenting the hat and seer stone dictation version. by the way do you need the replica of the gold plates.
teacher: no i am going to tell the children to imagine the gold plates are in the trunk of my car- that way they will see that Joseph Smith really did not need the plates to translate the Book of Mormon.
librarian: well if you need them i can wheelbarrow them to your room- you know the chruch has a new replica version of the plates and they weigh about 200 lbs-just trying to be as accurate as possible- our children deserve the whole truth!
teacher; thanx anyway- i am hoping the 8 yearolds will take this seriously- last year they all wanted to try to translate with the stone in the hat- i must say they had me laughing my ass off. see you next week- we will be studying polygamy and i will need 33 of the blowup full size female dolls- i love the one of fanny alger.
The RLDS seemed to struggle with the same issue 50 years ago. "A change in editorship at the Saints’ Herald, the (RLDS) church‘s official periodical, opened a new channel for the expression of intellectual ferment. The new editor, Roger Yarrington, allowed publication of several liberal articles in the Herald in the early 1960s. The two most controversial articles were written by James Lancaster and Lloyd Young. In a historical article called ―By the Gift and Power of God,‖ Lancaster explained that the original story regarding the translation of the Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith involved a ―seer stone,‖ which Smith used by looking into it in the bottom of a hat while the plates were under cover on a nearby table.31 The idea of a seer stone was a shock to many Reorganized Latter Day Saints who had been taught without qualification the traditional story of Joseph viewing the golden plates through a divine translation device called the Urim and Thummim. ."
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Why is the Church so intent on hiding this method of translation?
Why do you never communicate the reason why it was reported that Joseph Smith put his head in a hat? Prove to us that you're not a yellow journalist.
bcspace, why don't you show us exactly where it is reported.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Why do you never communicate the reason why it was reported that Joseph Smith put his head in a hat? Prove to us that you're not a yellow journalist.
bcspace, why don't you show us exactly where it is reported.
You guys are the ones claiming the hat trick in the first place. Feel free to provide an original reference.
LOL, thought so.
Do you ever pause to wonder why the most true religion needs you to play sleight of hand games to try and defend it?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
UnicornMan wrote:I think the Church uses the "we don't know" card frequently. Someone said Nelson indicated we "don't know" how the Book of Mormon was translated. GBH, when asked by Larry King if homosexuals are biologically responsible for their orientation he replied "I don't know, I'm not an expert on these things". He also used the "we don't' know" card when Larry King asked him if we believe as man is....God once was.....The same "I don't know" card was used when asked why God didn't' want the blacks to have the priesthood.
For a Church which claims absolute truth, and is believed to have direct communion with God, we sure don't know a lot about the important issues, do we?
You quoted the Article that we believe all that God has revealed, and that he will reveal many important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. This is pretty general. Sure, we believe that -- but the issue here is whether a stone in a hat was the means of tranlation, juxtaposed with a GA's statement that "we don't know how it happened". As I said, "We don't know" is a great back door out of historical problems. It supports the current position -- that it happened, without having to defend any historical claims, leaving everything in a sea of supernatural fog.
This way, the legend can live on, unfettered by any need for the Church to defend its origins.