Adam and Eve?

[Guest]

Sure they did. Satan told them a truth which they recognized. Satan also lied to them (saying they would not die)

The Scriptures are clear that Adam and Eve did NOT know about the Plan of Salvation at that point and certainly did not know that they were suppose to disobey God and eat of the fruit. I posted the verses in a previous post.

Yet you're ignoring the fact that the serpent spilled the beans and that they were under two conflicting commandments (not eat the fruit and multiply). Eve and Adam were certainly convinced of something and the Bible records that at least part of what the serpent said was true.

Why all this elaborate process and Scriptural story telling for our learning? "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2Ti 3:16) It is so we will NOT be deceived by the messengers of Satan. "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ." (2Co 11:13)

I agree 100% and am glad the the Bible does not refer to itself as the only and complete word of God. We have further light and knowledge that the Bible does not conflict with yet often hints at.

[_Madison54]

It also states on this site: "The valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman was revealed to Joseph Smith to be the place where Adam blessed his posterity after being driven from the Garden of Eden."

Sure. But that does not state the location of garden was in Missouri.

Well, the garden would have certainly had to have been close by....especially since Joseph Smith also located and identified the spot (in Missouri) where Adam offered sacrifice to the Lord after leaving the garden.

Why do you care so much about this that you'd be so argumentative? Seems odd to me. It's pretty much a given (even on FAIR and FARMS) that Joseph Smith believed and taught the Garden of Eden was in Missouri. I don't know what the big deal is. But continue nit picking and ignoring the conclusive statements and evidence....seems quite silly to me since it doesn't matter one way or the other to me where the garden was nor where Joseph Smith thought it was.

Most especially because even the church itself believes what Joseph taught about it being located in Missouri.

[_bcspace]

Well, the garden would have certainly had to have been close by....especially since Joseph Smith also located and identified the spot (in Missouri) where Adam offered sacrifice to the Lord after leaving the garden.

Probably the best evidence for that among the quotes and sites given would be the WWJ, a non doctrinal work. What we have doctrinally though is Adam blessing his posterity 900 years after the Fall. Plenty of time to migrate from elsewhere.

Why do you care so much about this that you'd be so argumentative?

I don't percieve myself as being argumentative. I'm merely trying to reconcile this notion with what I understand to be doctrine. The verses referenced don't say or imply the garden was in Missouri. So what we have are nondoctrinal statements and none of them direct from Joseph Smith.

I'm also trying to see if the garden being elsewhere than Missouri is tenable in LDS doctrine. A minor, and fun, exercise for me. Thanks for humoring me.

[_paulfisher]

Sure they did. Satan told them a truth which they recognized. Satan also lied to them (saying they would not die)

The Scriptures are clear that Adam and Eve did NOT know about the Plan of Salvation at that point and certainly did not know that they were suppose to disobey God and eat of the fruit. I posted the verses in a previous post.

Yet you're ignoring the fact that the serpent spilled the beans and that they were under two conflicting commandments (not eat the fruit and multiply). Eve and Adam were certainly convinced of something and the Bible records that at least part of what the serpent said was true.

I am not ignoring the fact that the serpent "spilled the beans". What does that mean anyway? Also, are you suggesting that God gives us conflicting commandments? God forbid. God only gave them ONE commandment. The "blessing" was to "Be fruitful and multiply." (Gen 1:28) He also blessed "every living creature that moveth" (Gen 1:21-22) with the same BLESSING. If this were a commandment, just how were the creatures much less the humans, suppose to break it?

(Edited- All commandments have the possibility of being broken by us humans. We obviously don't break them all. Just wanted to clear that last paragraph sentence up.)

These are typical contradictions that our and all the rest of Christendom's shepherds teach the sheep. Where ever there is contradiction there is falsehood.

Yes, it is true that Satan told the truth "that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (Gen 2:5)

This IS God's Plan for humanity. How else could we learn to become like Him?

You've mentioned twice now that you believe that Satan lied when he said "Ye shall not surely die" (Verse 4) and indeed he did. If you believe the UN-Scriptural doctrine of the "Immortal Soul" then you actually believe in Satan's lie. Something to think about as ALL Christians with their carnal hearts, love this doctrine of his.

Why all this elaborate process and Scriptural story telling for our learning? "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2Ti 3:16) It is so we will NOT be deceived by the messengers of Satan. "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ." (2Co 11:13)

I agree 100% and am glad the the Bible does refer to itself as the only and complete word of God. We have further light and knowledge that the Bible does not conflict with yet often hints at.

So you now agree 100% that the entire story and Scriptures I've mentioned are there for our learning? And you have now learned that Adam and Eve could NOT possibly have known the big Plan of God prior to partaking the fruit?

I cannot find anywhere in the Scriptures where it tells us that the Bible refers to itself "as the only and complete word of God". Please reference this for us.

We believe that "we have further light and knowledge" and yet we don't yet believe the Scriptures God has had written for us found in the Bible. Something we might possibly think about IF it's God's will.

“…because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God [yes God] shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:” (2 Th 2:10-11)

We indeed believe many lies yet we DON"T believe this refers to US because why would God blind US, after all, we belong to His true church.

The Scripture above tells us why God blinds us. It is "because they received not the love of the truth" And why do we not love the truth? Because we love the idol doctrines of our hearts more. We love what Mormonism offers us and we will pay to get it as also all of Christendom [in fact the whole world] loves the Satanic doctrine of free will/free moral agency idol of our hearts i.e. "the pride of life." (1Jn 2:16)

“(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber [stupor; deep sleep], eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.” (Rom 11:8)

Scripture is Scripture. The is no "context" in Scripture. Scripture is truth for all who read it or it is not Scripture at all. Why do we let our shepherds lie to us? For the reason above. This is God's Plan and is how He teaches us yet we don't believe nor understand this truth because our shepherds again are twisting the Scriptures of the resurrections for their gain.

"As also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned [Grosskreutz. ignorant] and unstable wrest [Grosskreutz. twist], as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2Pe 3:16)

[_bcspace]

I agree 100% and am glad the the Bible does not refer to itself as the only and complete word of God. We have further light and knowledge that the Bible does not conflict with yet often hints at.

So you now agree 100% that the entire story and Scriptures I've mentioned are there for our learning?

I've always agreed with it. But perhaps you are being misled by an error of mine, I meant to say "does not" and have made the change for you.

[_ludwigm]

The Scripture tells us why Adam ate the fruit: "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me,..."

[_bcuzbcuz]

Give me a time line you feel comfortable in using for Adam and Eve that puts their creation around 6000 years ago and from that extrapolate the time of Noah's flood. Of course I realize that your only source for this material comes from the Old Testament (The Torah) and that there is little to no physical proof to back it up.

Once you have established a date for Noah's flood, do a comparison of the history of Egyptian pyramid building. Most Biblical scholar say the flood was some 200 years after Adam.

There are some 125 pyramids in Egypt, none of which display water damage from flooding and were constructed between 2630 BC up to 1814 BC. The egyptian history is chronicled in written work, pottery, sculpture and pyramid building. It seems the workers kept working right on through the world flood.

Any comment?

[_Patriarchal gripe]

I've posed this question before, but I haven't heard a good answer yet.

Why did Satan tempt Adam and Eve? I know what the scriptural account says, so save your breath in repeating it to me.

What I mean is, what was his motivation? Clearly, the best thing he could have done if he truly wanted to derail the Plan Of Salvation would have been to do nothing, or even better, to have defended the tree of knowledge from Adam and Eve. He should have told them that Father was correct, they would die and they would learn absolutely nothing new if they ate the fruit. He should have done everything in his power to keep them from eating the fruit!

By not eating the fruit, they would never leave the garden, they would never procreate, and they would never have got the ball rolling for the Plan of Salvation.

So is Satan actually God's patsy? Is he getting some sort of kickback, under the table, from God for playing his part? Or is he really just incredibly stupid?

[Guest]

Why did Satan tempt Adam and Eve?

What I mean is, what was his motivation?

So is Satan actually God's patsy? Is he getting some sort of kickback, under the table, from God for playing his part? Or is he really just incredibly stupid?

The Scriptures say that God created Satan along with everything else and for a purpose - to be an adversary. Satan is under God's control and will. Satan along with us has no free will. God uses Satan for whatever reasons He wants. Mormonism along with the rest of Christendom does not belief this and so they don't really know nor understand God.

God put Satan's motivation in him. It was part of God's Plan.

Patsy is a strong word here although again God does indeed control him and us and everything else. The reason there is so much confusion in Mormonism and Christianity is because of the Satanic doctrine of free will/free choice/free moral agency. There is NO such thing. It is the biggest idol of humanity's heart and does nothing but create pride and misery in us.

[_bcspace]

By not eating the fruit, they would never leave the garden, they would never procreate, and they would never have got the ball rolling for the Plan of Salvation.

So is Satan actually God's patsy? Is he getting some sort of kickback, under the table, from God for playing his part? Or is he really just incredibly stupid?

There does seem to be an answer which in context raises a couple of other questions. But you'll have to attend the temple to hear it directly. In a nutshell either Satan did not know all the details of what was supposed to be going on, or he was just being a petulant child to HF in his explaination of why he was doing what he was doing; pretending to be ignorant.