Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

[_Tobin]

Could you provide more detail? I know it is not as simple as you are putting it.

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... ts/?id=126

Quite the opposite. Many religious leaders learn and use emotions/feelings to gain adherents.

Being gullible is not a condition I'm trying to address.

We all interpret our experiences. At one time we interpreted it as the HG. Now we don't, although most of us needed other evidences to change beliefs regardless LDS truth claims.

If you have to "interpret" your experience, you've never seen God.

... The LDS teachs that one will not get their answer from seeing or hearing God directly, but through the HG. I seriously doubt you were ever very active in the LDS church and would not know this stuff.

I seriously doubt you were ever a Mormon or a missionary. We often start with Joseph Smith first vision. He didn't feel the HG was near. HE SAW GOD. It seems you missed the point of the discusssions. Joseph Smith sets the bar and you settled for "I feel it is true". Weren't you paying attention?

You do not understand. People believe certain things usually not becuase they are true, but because they believe they are true. As such, people can change their minds for various reasons. Your criticisms really are aimed not just at former believers, but at a minimum the vast majority of believing members who have never had God or angels talk to them. I assume then you believe that God has talked to you?

I understand just fine. My criticisms are aimed at all those who do not truely know God or have experienced God in any way and cannot be bothered to seek God. Mormons who do not bothered to truely seek the Lord are simply ex-mormons in waiting. They are fooling themselves and everyone around them and living a lie. Either you know it is true or you don't. It is pretty cut-and-dried.

[_Runtu]

I understand just fine. My criticisms are aimed at all those who do not truly know God or have experienced God in any way and cannot be bothered to seek God. Mormons who do not bothered to truly seek the Lord are simply ex-mormons in waiting. They are fooling themselves and everyone around them and living a lie. Either you know it is true or you don't. It is pretty cut-and-dried.

Your evidence that others haven't sought God is that they didn't get the same answer you did. That is circular logic at its worst.

The difference between you and me is that I don't need to question your answer or sincerity.

[_SteelHead]

Tobin,
I just conversed with god and he told that he habitually lies to you just so you can convey your arrogant self righteousness on internet forums.

That god......He is such a kidder at times.

[_Themis]

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... ts/?id=126

If you read and study the issue you may realize that it is not as simple as you want it to be. Most usually are not.

Being gullible is not a condition I'm trying to address.

This is what you said

Seems like a stupid way to perpetrate a fraud to me.

I just said that it is a good way to get the gullible, so yes it is a great way to perpetrate a fraud, and quite common to use people emotions and feelings.

If you have to "interpret" your experience, you've never seen God.

Every expereince has to be interpreted. I think some are easier to correctly interpret then others. You avioded saying whether you have seen God. I know most member will freely admit they have not had anything close to that.

I seriously doubt you were ever a Mormon or a missionary. We often start with Joseph Smith first vision. He didn't feel the HG was near. HE SAW GOD. It seems you missed the point of the discusssions. Joseph Smith sets the bar and you settled for "I feel it is true". Weren't you paying attention?

Yes I did go on a mission. I am quite certain you probably did not. The church does not teach that one will get an anser by seeing God, but by the HG. Even the Book of Mormon teaches this.

I understand just fine. My criticisms are aimed at all those who do not truly know God or have experienced God in any way and cannot be bothered to seek God.

A big assumption that we have never sought God. An incorrect one at that.

Mormons who do not bothered to truly seek the Lord are simply ex-mormons in waiting.

More likely to become jack Mormons.

They are fooling themselves and everyone around them and living a lie. Either you know it is true or you don't. It is pretty cut-and-dried.

LOL You believe you know. I have no idea how understanding one does not really know if it is true, but believes anyway is living a lie.

[_Tobin]

Your evidence that others haven't sought God is that they didn't get the same answer you did. That is circular logic at its worst.
The difference between you and me is that I don't need to question your answer or sincerity.

I know you bristle at the idea that it doesn't matter what you try to be or do; it is what you are and do that matters. Either you believe in God and seek him, or you do not. It isn't circular reasoning. It is how reality is structured.

[_SteelHead]

Tobin,
In this reality you describe.... Can you demonstrate god?

[_Runtu]

I know you bristle at the idea that it doesn't matter what you try to be or do; it is what you are and do that matters.

I don't bristle at that at all. What I am and what I do matters to me. Why you disagree is a mystery to me.

Either you believe in God and seek him, or you do not. It isn't circular reasoning. It is how reality is structured.

I do believe in God and seek Him, whether you think so or not. It's interesting that you can pass judgment on a complete stranger simply because he didn't get the same answer you did.

[_Tobin]

If you read and study the issue you may realize that it is not as simple as you want it to be. Most usually are not.

Was barley in pre-columbian america? Yes or no? Seem pretty clear the answer is yes.

Every expereince has to be interpreted. I think some are easier to correctly interpret then others. You avioded saying whether you have seen God. I know most member will freely admit they have not had anything close to that.

Yes.

Yes I did go on a mission. I am quite certain you probably did not. The church does not teach that one will get an anser by seeing God, but by the HG. Even the Book of Mormon teaches this.

You are incorrect. I left Mormonism after my mission in fact. I also like the statement "The church does not teach" such-and-such. Like you would know? Seems like the scriptures seem to teach something completely different and early church history point at something completely different. These people are seeing angels and God, but you seem to feel that has changed in some way? Or maybe (just a theory), you never understood a thing about the gospel and what "real" spirtual experiences are in the first place?

A big assumption that we have never sought God. An incorrect one at that.

Really? You've seen God have you? What does God want us to believe and do?

LOL You believe you know. I have no idea how understanding one does not really know if it is true, but believes anyway is living a lie.

Yes, actually I do. Ex-mormons have lists or reasons they don't believe in the church. They don't like this or that about the Book of Mormon. They don't like this or that about the history. They don't like this or that about the doctrine of policies. But when you take a hatchet to the thicket of their thinking about the church, it turns out in almost every case - they simply do not know or believe in God.

[_Tobin]

I know you bristle at the idea that it doesn't matter what you try to be or do; it is what you are and do that matters.

I don't bristle at that at all. What I am and what I do matters to me. Why you disagree is a mystery to me.

Either you believe in God and seek him, or you do not. It isn't circular reasoning. It is how reality is structured.

I do believe in God and seek Him, whether you think so or not. It's interesting that you can pass judgment on a complete stranger simply because he didn't get the same answer you did.

If that is true, good for you. I was hasty in my assessment and I apologize. Your prior answers seemed to indicate something altogether different.

[Guest]

I already said I know and converse with god. He is one cool cat. He still says he lies to you all the time and he is trying to leave you nuerotic. He also says is is not sure why you keep saying things about him that are not true and wishes that you would stop dismissing others' povs simply because they disagree with your delusions. He says you haven't learned to differentiate between internal, godly, and Satanic sources of inspiration yet, but you are still a work in progress. He also says if you stop being so arrogant then he might stop lying to you.