Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

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_Runtu
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Runtu »

Tobin wrote:Correction. It doesn't mean what you think it says. As I've pointed out to you again and again, it is your bad assumptions that get you in trouble. This is true of Isaiah and the Book of Mormon.


As has been pointed out, this really is nothing more than ipse dixit on your part.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Tobin
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Tobin »

Runtu wrote:As has been pointed out, this really is nothing more than ipse dixit on your part.
And as I've said, I'm not Roman and I don't care. If you wish to actually argue against what I've said in an meaningful way, I'm all ears.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Runtu
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Runtu »

Tobin wrote:And as I've said, I'm not Roman and I don't care. If you wish to actually argue against what I've said in an meaningful way, I'm all ears.


You haven't discussed the reasons why there is broad consensus on this issue and why we should reject that consensus. All you've said is that Jesus wouldn't have cited Isaiah had it not been written by a single author. Why you think that is a complete mystery to me. You haven't made a case for that beyond asserting that Jesus would have known. Ipse dixit.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Tobin
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Tobin »

Runtu wrote:You haven't discussed the reasons why there is broad consensus on this issue and why we should reject that consensus. All you've said is that Jesus wouldn't have cited Isaiah had it not been written by a single author. Why you think that is a complete mystery to me. You haven't made a case for that beyond asserting that Jesus would have known. Ipse dixit.
Actually, that is selective reading on your part (another of your problems). I stated a number of people that disagree with you. John, Jesus, the Apostles, the council of laodicea, and fundamentalists. Your argument is just fallacious. You argue your position is correct because it popular among Bible scholars (and yes there is a Latin term for that as well) and your theory is based on the idea that Isaiah, a prophet of God, could not possibly see the future.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Runtu
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Runtu »

Tobin wrote:Actually, that is selective reading on your part (another of your problems). I stated a number of people that disagree with you. John, Jesus, the Apostles, the council of laodicea, and fundamentalists. Your argument is just fallacious. You argue your position is correct because it popular among Bible scholars (and yes there is a Latin term for that as well) and your theory is based on the idea that Isaiah, a prophet of God, could not possibly see the future.


I'm not arguing from popularity. There are good reasons for the consensus, which we have discussed. Your response has simply been to wave off the scholarship and say that John and Jesus and the council of Laodicea and fundamentalists would have known. What kind of response is that? It's not.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Tobin
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Tobin »

Runtu wrote:I'm not arguing from popularity. There are good reasons for the consensus, which we have discussed. Your response has simply been to wave off the scholarship and say that John and Jesus and the council of Laodicea and fundamentalists would have known. What kind of response is that? It's not.
Yes, because obviously Bible scholars are smarter than Jesus.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Runtu
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Runtu »

Tobin wrote:Yes, because obviously Bible scholars are smarter than Jesus.


Thanks for reminding me yet again that you are not interested in discussing this issue. Have a lovely evening.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Samantabhadra
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Samantabhadra »

I went to a Jesuit Catholic high school and a Jesuit Catholic university for my undergraduate degree. At both institutions I had to take multiple classes in Scripture and theology in order to graduate. Deutero-Isaiah came up several times and was taught uncontroversially as evidence of the long and involved process that yielded the Bible as we currently have it.
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Tobin »

Samantabhadra wrote:I went to a Jesuit Catholic high school and a Jesuit Catholic university for my undergraduate degree. At both institutions I had to take multiple classes in Scripture and theology in order to graduate. Deutero-Isaiah came up several times and was taught uncontroversially as evidence of the long and involved process that yielded the Bible as we currently have it.
Oh do tell. How do the Jesuits deal with the problems I have highlighted?
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Samantabhadra
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Samantabhadra »

You haven't highlighted any "problems." Your supposed "problems" are only "problems" if you insist on scriptural literalism. Since scriptural literalism is terrible hermeneutics, traditional Christian exegesis has never insisted on a literal reading of Scripture. As a formal methodology it is barely 100 years old, and as an informal approach to Scripture it originates in the Protestant reformation. Actually that was a huge part of Luther's problem with the Church: he thought the text should stand on its own and that ordinary people should have the ability to read and interpret it for themselves, instead of having to have the meaning of Scripture explained to them and mediated by the living tradition.

But just because I feel like it:


2) Jesus Christ, the purported son of God, was familiar with Isaiah and felt no need to identify the fraudulent sections.
3) Early church apostles and leaders did not identify the fraudulent sections.
4) From a Catholic point-of-view, the bishops at the Council of Laodicea when voting on which books to include did not spot the forgery.


You are making the mistake of assuming that because the author of Deutero-Isaiah is not the author of the rest of Isaiah, that it is somehow a forgery or a fraud. The author of Deutero-Isaiah was considered, both by the Jews of his era, and by the later Church Councils such as at Laodicea, to have been "divinely inspired." The point being, just because the author of Deutero-Isaiah is not the same as the author of the rest of Isaiah, that does not mean that he was not "divinely inspired."

Similarly, much of the Gospels were written, not by the actual Apostles named, but by their students and followers, in their name. In the ancient world, this was seen as a way of paying homage, of practicing humility, and (yes) of establishing authority. The idea is that you would write something in your teacher's name, in order to add to your teacher's reputation, and to draw on the authority of your teacher within the wider community. There is no reason to believe that the author of Deutero-Isaiah had any nefarious motives.

Now, it is true that Joseph Smith was a fraud with transparently nefarious motives, that the Book of Mormon is a fraud, and that the supposed author of the Book of Mormon is not the author that Joseph Smith claimed it to be. The Book of Mormon is a fraudulent document composed in the imagination of Joseph Smith. But you are missing the point that just because Joseph Smith was a liar and a fraud, that does not mean that the author of Deutero-Isaiah was a fraud.
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