Swedenborg...

[_Equality]

No association to this is made during the time of Joseph Smith.

It is interesting that an apologist is now appealing to the authority of 19th-century critics of Mormonism to make his point. Tobin, are you sure that 19th-century critics did not claim Joseph Smith borrowed ideas from others in producing the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, and Mormon doctrines and practices? Do you really want to take that stance?

[_moksha]

Joseph Smith was a genius at taking religious ideas and combining them into a new synthesis. If only he had been more familiar with eastern religions then perhaps we LDS would have the saying, "How now pure and delightsome Tao".

Feel free to use that mokshaism in your next Sacrament talk.

[_Tobin]

No association to this is made during the time of Joseph Smith.

It is interesting that an apologist is now appealing to the authority of 19th-century critics of Mormonism to make his point. Tobin, are you sure that 19th-century critics did not claim Joseph Smith borrowed ideas from others in producing the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, and Mormon doctrines and practices? Do you really want to take that stance?

Why? Are you claiming Swedenborg authored the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, and inspired all Mormon doctrine and practices now too? I think that is overstating the case a bit much don't you? I admit Swedenborg is interesting, but that is all. He's a minor footnote and Joseph Smith may have read something about him. But, I wouldn't characterize it as being much more of an indirect influence than Shakespeare would have had on Joseph Smith. I certainly don't see him as a luminary of his age or even being recognizable to the contemporary critics of Joseph Smith.

[_Drifting]

Reread what I said. No mention of heart. My commentary had to do with the availability of Swedenborgian thought in antebellum American. And did you notice that I listed John Hyde? Are you aware of who this guy is, and what connection he might have with Mormonism and Swedenborgianism? How about Samuel Woodworth, a proponent of the Christianization movement in Freemasonry. Have you heard of this movement, and of its connection to Mormonism may have been? How abut the James Family? You know the famous wealthy family that invested in the construction that the canal that the Smith family worked on? What did they have to do with Swedenborg? How about Johnny Appleseed and the places he traveled as he passed out Swedenborgian literature? Do you know where he went? How about Sampson Reed's presence in New York, and the response that certain intellectuals (like Emerson) had for this poet? How about Emerson's understandings of the doings of Joseph Smith? What about the theosophists? What interests did they have with Swedenborg? And what are theosophists anyway? Their influence was far removed from the Smiths, right? And what about books donated in the Nauvoo library?

Mike.

I think you make the point that Swedenborgs teachings were readily available to Joseph Smith either directly or via a number of people within his circle of association. Thanks Mike.

What I haven't seen is a rebuttal from apologia showing which doctrines 'restored' by Joseph Smith weren't already being bandied about in some form or other by people unrelated to Mormonism.
Or is that it?
The restoration was actually picking the true bits that were already about and parcelling them together under a unique label?

[_Tobin]

Mike.
I think you make the point that Swedenborgs teachings were readily available to Joseph Smith either directly or via a number of people within his circle of association. Thanks Mike.
What I haven't seen is a rebuttal from apologia showing which doctrines 'restored' by Joseph Smith weren't already being bandied about in some form or other by people unrelated to Mormonism.
Or is that it?
The restoration was actually picking the true bits that were already about and parcelling them together under a unique label?

Uhm, that assumes that Joseph Smith had a monopoly on the truth. I don't think that is the case, so what does that leave us with? Joseph Smith and Swadenborg said some similar things. I don't think the ideas expressed by Swadenborg had a significant impact upon Joseph Smith, hence the passing reference, and the association was tangential at best. So I really don't see much of a story here.

[_Drifting]

Mike.
I think you make the point that Swedenborgs teachings were readily available to Joseph Smith either directly or via a number of people within his circle of association. Thanks Mike.
What I haven't seen is a rebuttal from apologia showing which doctrines 'restored' by Joseph Smith weren't already being bandied about in some form or other by people unrelated to Mormonism.
Or is that it?
The restoration was actually picking the true bits that were already about and parcelling them together under a unique label?

Uhm, that assumes that Joseph Smith had a monopoly on the truth. I don't think that is the case, so what does that leave us with? Joseph Smith and Swadenborg said some similar things. I don't think the ideas expressed by Swadenborg had a significant impact upon Joseph Smith, hence the passing reference, and the association was tangential at best. So I really don't see much of a story here.

So you can't think of anything unique that Joseph Smith restored then?
Perhaps the Restoration would be better named as The Amalgamation or The Pliagerization or The Borrowing?

[_Tobin]

So you can't think of anything unique that Joseph Smith restored then? Perhaps the Restoration would be better named as The Amalgamation or The Pliagerization or The Borrowing?

No, I honestly don't think that arguing that what Joseph Smith did was the restoration of the truth, nor is it a great argument for Mormonism at all. The reason is simple. You can just find pieces of Mormonism all over the place if you look. Now there are some things you might argue for:
1) You might claim the restoration of the Book of Mormon; however, books dedicated for a religion are not unique.
2) You might claim the restoration of the blessings of heaven through the priesthood; however, I see these expressed rarely nor are these blessing unique to Mormons.
3) You might claim the restoration of faith in God provided you receive an answer.
4) You might claim the restoration of the keys of the Spirit Prison so the souls damned there can continue on, but the idea is not unique and you won't know if it is real until after you die.
5) ...
I'm sure I could keep going on with this, but I think you get the picture. There are ways the term 'restoration' could be applied, but there is no monopoly on the truth that I can see.

[_ludwigm]

- telestial

Bad news. I've found an esoteric source that strikes this one from the list. Stay tuned.

Thank You. I'm interested in. The link, please?

[_Drifting]

I'm sure I could keep going on with this, but I think you get the picture. There are ways the term 'restoration' could be applied, but there is no monopoly on the truth that I can see.

I think the point is that the Church portrays a message that Gospel truths were lost and that Joseph restored them and only the one true Church has them. In reality, the truths Joseph restored weren't lost in the first place.

[_Fence Sitter]

I think the point is that the Church portrays a message that Gospel truths were lost and that Joseph restored them and only the one true Church has them. In reality, the truths Joseph restored weren't lost in the first place.

Why do I see a redefinition of the word 'lost' incoming?