No three degrees of Glory in 1 Cor 15

[_Tobin]

Tobin, a reasonable post on its surface but you will admit that there are words that Mormons and Christians use that have very different meanings to each. You use the term salvation in connection with Christ but Mormons believe that what Jesus actually provided was resurrection, only a gateway, if you will, to the exaltation that they have to earn through their adherence to all the rules and regulations of Mormonism. Christians believe that the salvation provided by Jesus is full and total, encompassing eternal life with the Father with all that he has to offer...not an ounce of earning or deserving anywhere only his amazing grace. Glad, though, that you ditch the teaching of godhood for Mormons be it God or gods.

Again, that isn't what I believe either. You can't do things to get salvation. How does one pay God? However, I do believe one should follow and do as God asks. Don't you agree?

[_Albion]

But are we talking the same salvation? Is salvation resurrection and all that the Father has, as orthodoxy believes, or is it only resurrection with an earned, higher level (exaltation) in heaven as an add. I agree that being obedient to God is important but obedience and works are manifest in the believer as the demonstration of the saving grace that has taken place.....not as a process to earn God's favor or grace. Grace that has to be earned is not grace in the first place...it is reward or obligated earnings for deeds/work done. I am not trying to be argumentative just trying to be sure we understand what each of us means by the terms we use.

[_subgenius]

But are we talking the same salvation? Is salvation resurrection and all that the Father has, as orthodoxy believes, or is it only resurrection with an earned, higher level (exaltation) in heaven as an add. I agree that being obedient to God is important but obedience and works are manifest in the believer as the demonstration of the saving grace that has taken place.....not as a process to earn God's favor or grace. Grace that has to be earned is not grace in the first place...it is reward or obligated earnings for deeds/work done. I am not trying to be argumentative just trying to be sure we understand what each of us means by the terms we use.

I don't think you can be talking about the same "salvation"...but theologically it is the same.
Quite obviously, God's Grace is for the forgiveness of of our sins and when combined with our personal "enduring to the end" we are sanctified. At this point we then depart towards "degrees" and most evangelicals remain unaware of the scriptures on this matter.
Faith and Grace are inseparable and i don't believe you can support the argument that Grace makes manifest works. This is why we consider the Terrestial Kingdom for those who are neither exalted nor condemned - a person may accept the salvation of Christ but they may have not "endured".
nevertheless, James (and Paul) make it clear that Grace and Works are not distinct from each other with regards to being able to provide Salvation.
The simplest form of this notion is that there is no way but through repentance and baptism (work).
Sola Fide is not well supported by the scriptures nor common sense.

[_subgenius]

good rebutal, I'm impressed

fyi
its not a rebuttal since it wasn't a counter-argument...it was more like an "exposure", as in your contradictory position being exposed as fallible and unsupported. It has the unfortunate consequence of illuminating your defeat on the matter. Your loss has been made manifest and suspicion would now rise should you continue to refute the truth of the situation.

[_Albion]

One or two points from your post. Firstly, I think evangelicals are fully aware of the scriptures Mormon use to support their theology off degrees of heave...they just don't accept the Mormon interpretation of them as has been discussed. Secondly, I do agree that faith and grace are intertwined. God loves us unconditionally and extends his grace, unmerited favor towards us, because of our faith in his Son. I do not make the argument that grace makes manifest works as such but that because of the forgiving grace experienced in the salvation process by the believer his "heart" is changed to do those things pleasing to the provider of that grace. It is the demonstration of what has taken place in the believer. Thirdly, I think scripture makes it very clear that grace and works are very distinct from each other in terms of what saves. If I may quote a Christian writer who states the Christian position rather well: "We must understand, then, that faith and works can never in themselves (or together for that matter) save anyone. It is sovereign grace alone that forms the basis for eternal salvation. Good works "complete" the testimony of faith by witnessing to the fact of that faith's existence; they serve to justify us before men, who cannot see the grace or the faith that has already justified us before God." I'll leave you to explain your view of justification but to Christians it is a term that conveys the truth that men are made right with God.... righteous in his eyes just as if they never sinned. Scripture, especially the writings of Paul, are full of this teaching..." (the Savior)....saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior , so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." Titus 3: 4-7.

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, (works, rules and regulations) has been made known to which the Law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference" Romans 3:21-22

Clearly righteousness comes from God not through anything we do...and if you accept that, you must accept that there are no degrees of this righteousness...God gives it complete "there is no difference"...there is nothing partial about God's gift of righteousness.

Now I do understand that if your belief is, as in Mormonism, that we are talking only resurrection salvation as the essential step to earned exaltation then these scriptures won't mean much to you...but I believe they cannot be denied especially since Mormonism teaches that all men (I agree) will be resurrected with or without any kind of faith. If God is only talking resurrection salvation why is there any need for grace at all since all men will receive that at least no matter what they do?

[_Albion]

I wrote this when only subgenious's last post was up. My last post is in response to his.

[_subgenius]

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, (works, rules and regulations) has been made known to which the Law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference" Romans 3:21-22

Clearly righteousness comes from God not through anything we do...and if you accept that, you must accept that there are no degrees of this righteousness...God gives it complete "there is no difference"...there is nothing partial about God's gift of righteousness.

actually, not clearly.

Your verses clearly show that works will not, alone, bring about salvation....but there is no discount that works are necessary in addition...
God has not provided this Grace without provision. There will be no grace where there is no obedience, as the Savior teaches -
Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits."

The seed must be brought forth and it is brought forth in varying degrees in varying degrees of soil, and varies even in good soil.
We read in matthew 13:8
"But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold."


Being "saved" is the only equal payment that each worker in the vineyard receives, regardless of tenure. That parable is about faith and what faith may bring about but it is not without work. One must be both in the vineyard and be working to receive payment, and we see that there are varying degrees of those in the vineyard. To work outside the vineyard is for naught and to be in the vineyard and not working is for naught.
None can escape even the simplest example of baptism...repentance and baptism is not a fruit of the seed but rather the soil upon which that seed takes root. Works are the toil, care, and weeding that allows the fruit to come forth..at 30, 60, or 100 fold.

Sola Gratia, being an important aspect of Calvinism has permeated the evangelical traditions and understandably so...but i am not convinced of the math.
The fundamental difference being that an evangelical is convinced that Faith leads to justification and good works (Sola Fide - your position) yet i believe that Faith and good works leads to justification.
We both agree that only God may declare either of us as "justified" but by what measure, since we both recognize that a measure is indeed being used by Him.
In my view there is credible argument or evidence that would conclude that we are all "suddenly righteous" upon a declaration of faith....but it comes "through faith"...as the Romans would clearly need to understand (as opposed to the understanding of works). In other words, as the parable of the sower proves, planting the seed does not automatically mean fruit shall come forth.

[_Albion]

I think here we have a fundamental difference between Christianity and Mormonism. I reject completely, as I believe does scripture, that salvation is a combination of faith/grace and works. If works came anywhere into the equation God would be obligated to us and our salvation would be wages. I do not in any way denigrate good works...believers should be engaged in good works, but as a demonstration of the saving grace that has taken part not in any way to earn it. If you were to die today, subgenious, where would you go? Do you have the assurance that you have done enough...and remember that even one sin makes you no less guilty of all? Can you even know in your lifetime if you have done enough good works? I think not and yet the simple and clear message of the gospel is that Jesus paid the price for all your sin and you receive justification from God through his grace alone for your faith. I think at its core this is the message Christian believers want to convey to Mormons...it is a very simple one that gives believers an assurance of salvation through Jesus alone. I live my life in the assurance of full salvation because of what Jesus did not what I do ...it is the truth that makes us free.

[_subgenius]

I think here we have a fundamental difference between Christianity and Mormonism. I reject completely, as I believe does scripture, that salvation is a combination of faith/grace and works.

i am willing to let you make your case for such.

If works came anywhere into the equation God would be obligated to us and our salvation would be wages.

covenants are not a foreign concept and as we enter in to the we are obligated to God and by His word He is obligated to us, He will never retract from His obligation should we fulfill ours.
Are we not required to repent and be baptized in order to receive.....? Do we receive without repentance? without baptism?
and do we not receive wages for working in the vineyard?

I do not in any way denigrate good works...believers should be engaged in good works, but as a demonstration of the saving grace that has taken part not in any way to earn it.

i am not disputing the source of Grace nor its implication, however i am disputing, via scriptures, that Grace yields only from faith and faith alone.

If you were to die today, subgenious, where would you go? Do you have the assurance that you have done enough...and remember that even one sin makes you no less guilty of all?

assurance? honestly it is not for me to make that judgment call, but i am assured that the Lord will judge me with righteousness and accordingly. People that exclaim "assurance" may yet be surprised as they have been distracted by their arrogance for what they feel entitled.

Can you even know in your lifetime if you have done enough good works? I think not and yet the simple and clear message of the gospel is that Jesus paid the price for all your sin and you receive justification from God through his grace alone for your faith. I think at its core this is the message Christian believers want to convey to Mormons...it is a very simple one that gives believers an assurance of salvation through Jesus alone. I live my life in the assurance of full salvation because of what Jesus did not what I do ...it is the truth that makes us free.

i may never know that i have "done enough" and that is why the grace and mercy of the Lord will echo within me. But the soul that is unrepentant will not hear that echo and must learn about "obedience", for the notion of grace is useless to them.
Just because i do not adopt the colloquialism of "Born Again" does not mean my doctrine of grace is so different form yours. I do not believe that one can attain salvation without God's grace and that grace is given unto whosoever "works" the ground for where that grace is planted and grows. Our choices, our actions, our faith, and grace are all required...none alone are enough. Just as we may toil about with evil in our heart, appearing to friends and family as righteous when in fact we are not we must recognize that God commands us into action and without it our faith is dead and there is no grace.
This is most eloquently and concisely taught as summarized in James 2:17, i honestly don't see how one can distinguish one from the other.
as is clearly stated in James 2:26
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

for as works, without faith, are dead works, so faith, without works, is a dead faith

[_Albion]

Well the first thing that jumps out at me is the charge of arrogance for a presumed deserving. That couldn't be farther from the accepted definition of grace which in its purest form is defined as favor we don't deserve. I am fully aware of my sinful condition and know that it is only by God's grace that I am saved. I give all credit to him who saved me...none to myself. Deserving is the pure reward of works...wages earned for work done. The old covenant that God made with Israel essentially said that if they would keep his commandments and be true to him he would be their God and would bless them. The new covenant in Christ is essentially that through faith in his Son, God will pour out his grace and count as righteous those who in and of themselves are not righteous. The whole premise is on the principle of not being deserving. It is in works that men tend to boast..."but not by works" because they do tend to boast.

As I said earlier, I think this is a fundamental and core difference issue between Mormonism and orthodoxy. My observation and experience is that orthodoxy places the person of Jesus at the top of the pyramid while Mormons place The Church there with Jesus somewhere down below together with all the other stuff that has to be done in order to become "worthy"....seemingly ignoring the Biblical injunction that he alone is our worthiness. The saved Christian knows he can never be worthy except through Jesus. As someone once said to me when I asked: If Mormonism is the one true church of Christ as it claims, why doesn't it talk about him more as other churches do (very often the only time you will hear the name Jesus is at the end of a prayer). His answer stunned me at the time: "Well other churches talk about him a lot because that's all they've got...we have genealogy, temples, priesthood, etc., etc." I realize its only one person but I have heard such sentiments from Mormons often during more than 30 years living in Utah.

You say you have assurance the Lord will judge you righteously. I believe he will indeed...but the righteous judgement for those whose sins are not completely covered by God's grace through Jesus, is something not to be contemplated. Salvation is a free gift...if works, deeds done, are a requirement for it then it's hardly a free gift. Ultimately we will have to agree to disagree but the consequences of placing our salvation in the wrong place are awesome and eternal.