Emotional Epistemology

[_Themis]

You really seem rather dense here Themis. As I've repeatedly pointed out to you, it isn't the HG manifesting - it is God manifesting the truth to you. To manifest is to demonstrate, show, display, illustrate, prove, to make appear or apparent. So it begs the question - DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH AT ALL?!?

And your ludicrous position that Joseph Smith and all the prophets want us to have feelings when they themselves have God show up and tell them the truth is beyond idiotic. THEY WANT US TO HAVE THE SAME EXPERIENCES THAT THEY HAVE HAD SO WE KNOW IT IS TRUE TOO.

I will try one more time to explain what everyone else gets but you. Moroni's promise has God saying he will manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon, not that God will manifest himself. That God may have shown up to others is not really relevant since you are ignoring all the other examples of God communicating with the HG or even angels with flaming swords. Now it clearly says what God is going to manifest, and nothing about manifesting himself. Next it says by what means God will manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon, which is by the power of the HG. Again we see no hint that God will show up, only that the HG is responsible for manifesting the truth of the Book of Mormon for God. This is also common in life where a person or group may appoint another to speak in their behalf.

You act like you are completely oblivious of the First Vision. What did Joseph Smith do? He asked and was shown the truth by God. What did Lehi do? He asked and was shown the truth by God. What did Nephi do? He asked was shown the truth by God. What have all the prophets and true followers of God have done throughout time? They have asked and been shown the truth by God.

You act like you are oblivious to all the other examples in LDS scriptures and teachings on the subject. If it is so obvious why does the church not teach people that Moroni's promise is about God showing up. That's because it never indicates that he will.

Have a nice life Themis, but unless and until you acknowledge God, speak with him face-to-face and follow him, you will never come to a knowledge of the truth or the gospel or understand God in the slightest.

Another little indicator that your story is not on the level to suggest God won't do something for me unless I acknowledge him, even though you claim he did for you. unfortunately you like to many live in your own fantasy world. I am comfortable to stand before any deity and know I only sought for the truth. No good deity will punish people for being willing to follow the truth as we understand it.

[_Gunnar]

You really seem rather dense here Themis. As I've repeatedly pointed out to you, it isn't the HG manifesting - it is God manifesting the truth to you. To manifest is to demonstrate, show, display, illustrate, prove, to make appear or apparent. So it begs the question - DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH AT ALL?!?

And your ludicrous position that Joseph Smith and all the prophets want us to have feelings when they themselves have God show up and tell them the truth is beyond idiotic. THEY WANT US TO HAVE THE SAME EXPERIENCES THAT THEY HAVE HAD SO WE KNOW IT IS TRUE TOO.

I will try one more time to explain what everyone else gets but you. Moroni's promise has God saying he will manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon, not that God will manifest himself. That God may have shown up to others is not really relevant since you are ignoring all the other examples of God communicating with the HG or even angels with flaming swords. Now it clearly says what God is going to manifest, and nothing about manifesting himself. Next it says by what means God will manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon, which is by the power of the HG. Again we see no hint that God will show up, only that the HG is responsible for manifesting the truth of the Book of Mormon for God. This is also common in life where a person or group may appoint another to speak in their behalf.

You act like you are completely oblivious of the First Vision. What did Joseph Smith do? He asked and was shown the truth by God. What did Lehi do? He asked and was shown the truth by God. What did Nephi do? He asked was shown the truth by God. What have all the prophets and true followers of God have done throughout time? They have asked and been shown the truth by God.

You act like you are oblivious to all the other examples in LDS scriptures and teachings on the subject. If it is so obvious why does the church not teach people that Moroni's promise is about God showing up. That's because it never indicates that he will.

Have a nice life Themis, but unless and until you acknowledge God, speak with him face-to-face and follow him, you will never come to a knowledge of the truth or the gospel or understand God in the slightest.

Another little indicator that your story is not on the level to suggest God won't do something for me unless I acknowledge him, even though you claim he did for you. unfortunately you like to many live in your own fantasy world. I am comfortable to stand before any deity and know I only sought for the truth. No good deity will punish people for being willing to follow the truth as we understand it.

+1
One very minor criticism, however. You have a tendency to use the word "to" when it is apparent from the context that you really meant to say "too." "To" is only properly used as a preposition, as in "go to the store" or "give it to me" or as part of an infinitive verb as in "to run" or "to be or not to be."

[_Gunnar]

I nominate Tobin for the title "Champion maker of Baseless Assertions."

I can think of nothing more ludicrous or more arrogant than his claim to know us better than we know ourselves. When and how did he acquire this divine attribute?

Well, it happened during a period when Tobin was following Satan and doing bad things (he hasn't been explicit what those things were, but they were bad).
Whilst in the act of doing bad things, God showed up out of the blue. Tobin is loathe to describe Him nor how He sounded but he assures us it was God Himself that turned up in person to talk to Tobin whilst he was engaged in doing bad things.

I have asked Tobin on numerous occasions to explain how he knows it was God, but as yet, he has not provided an answer.
I have asked Tobin on numerous occasions to explain why he advocates us to pray to God for an answer when he himself received a visit and answer from God whilst engaged in bad things and not seeking God, but as yet, he has not provided an answer.

Yes, I have become familiar with Tobin's story. Isn't it remarkable how oblivious he is to the inherent fallacies in his own logic (or, rather, attempts at logic)?

[_Tobin]

A little refresher is necessary here. I really don't need to contradict Themis since he contradicts himself. To start with, let's consider Moroni 10:4

Moroni 10:4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Now here is Themis's valuable insight:

Moroni's promise does not lead to this conclusion since it says the HG will reveal the truth. It doesn't say anything about God needing to show up.

But maybe we heard him wrong. Wait, apparently not:

Seriously. This is one of the more ludicrous statements I have read.Joseph taught the HG was a separate personage, and Moroni's promise clearly says it will be the HG who manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon. "he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost"

Oh, but he says now:

Yes Moroni's promise says God will manifest the TRUTH of the Book of Mormon to you BY the power of the HG.

But this doesn't actually involve God or anyone actually showing up from God:

And many have called you on this BS. You say you didn't anyways. I have sought for many years God, and tried to follow him. I know that as do others, and recognize you need to believe this in order to justify why no one else sees God.

And here is what he thinks of people actually claiming to see God:

I had many reasons to believe, but found evidence(reasons) both spiritual and physical that showed Joseph made it up.

But what is Themis's counter example of someone other than God showing up?

I will try one more time to explain what everyone else gets but you. Moroni's promise has God saying he will manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon, not that God will manifest himself. That God may have shown up to others is not really relevant since you are ignoring all the other examples of God communicating with the HG or even angels with flaming swords. Now it clearly says what God is going to manifest, and nothing about manifesting himself. Next it says by what means God will manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon, which is by the power of the HG. Again we see no hint that God will show up, only that the HG is responsible for manifesting the truth of the Book of Mormon for God. This is also common in life where a person or group may appoint another to speak in their behalf.

Ah, so the HG and his angels don't actually represent God in any way. A distinction I never made. But, the best part is Themis claims that in fact no-one has to show up from God:

Sorry, but I have explained very clearly what it actually says which is manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon, and my definition is still correct that is does not have to involve the appearance of anyone. Just because some have have seen God does not make it a condition or requirement to know the truth of the Book of Mormon or any many other truths according to Joseph and LDS doctrine. You just don't like the fact that it doesn't agree with what you want to preach, but then so what. Many LDS doctrines conflict with what you want to believe and you are happy with that.

Whoa, what? So no-one has to show up at all and manifest anything despite what Moroni claims that "he will manifest (show, demonstrate, prove, make apparent and so on) the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost" and despite what Themis just used as examples in the prior quote?!? Wow, amazing the great insights Themis is bringing into what Moroni actually states.

Now, the reader is welcome to read through THIS thread. This didn't come from other threads on different topics (which is how Themis likes to discredit his critics) - this all happened while discussing the same topic and within a few posts of one another.

[Guest]

A little refresher is necessary here. I really don't need to contradict Themis since he contradicts himself.

If you read Moroni's promise you will see there is no contradiction. I even hinted at it.

Themis

Again we see no hint that God will show up, only that the HG is responsible for manifesting the truth of the Book of Mormon for God. This is also common in life where a person or group may appoint another to speak in their behalf.

As you can see God is manifesting the truth of the Book of Mormon through the HG who would be representing God. Again we see no hint that God has to, or needs to show up in order to meet the requirement of manifesting the truth of the Book of Mormon. Both can be said to be manifesting it. The same would be for a assistant who speaks for a scientist of is manifesting the evidence about some scientific principle to a group or individual.

And here is what he thinks of people actually claiming to see God:

You are misrepresenting what I said. It was directed at you and your BS about thinking you know what people have or have not done. I am one of only a few who have called you on this.

But what is Themis's counter example of someone other than God showing up?

There are plenty of examples of only having an angel show up or just the spirit. This is something even primary children understand about what the church teaches.

Ah, so the HG and his angels don't actually represent God in any way. A distinction I never made.

You made the distinction that God needs to show up which has been shown to be wrong.

But, the best part is Themis claims that in fact no-one has to show up from God:

I wouldn't call what the church calls the spirit involves the HG showing up. Church doctrine has the HG as a personage of spirit but does not think the personage has to show up in order to experience the power of the HG.

manifest (show, demonstrate, prove, make apparent and so on)

Since manifesting in Moroni's promise is about manifesting the truth of the Book of Mormon, nothing you list in the words definition needs to have God or the HG show up in person. It states by the power of the HG.

Now, the reader is welcome to read through THIS thread.

I welcome it. I think people can easily see you are very wrong, and if they know anything about you they may see why you want to view it so incorrectly. I don't know any LDS believers who think in order to know if things like the Book of Mormon are true that God has to show up. I don't think anyone knows how tobin even came up with this one.

[_subgenius]

I nominate Tobin for the title "Champion maker of Baseless Assertions."

what? you would surrender your crown?!?

I can think of nothing more ludicrous or more arrogant than his claim to know us better than we know ourselves.

Let us all pause and consider the dripping irony of your accusation here...................................................................

[_PrickKicker]

Can someone who is blessed with being a prophet, seer and revelator, please interpret this for me...
Thinking of Moroni's Promise...

Moroni 10:4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And when ye shall receive these things...
Is this a physical or psychological acceptance?
I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true...
Emphatically urging someone, to ask God, in the name of Christ, if they are NOT true. Is confusing is it not?
and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ,
If someone is sincere enough to pray and ask, surely they have real intent and also faith in Christ?
he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Can you explain what this manifestation will be?

If one accepts the book physically, reads it through to the end, then follows up asking if it is not true,
Surely if they make it that far, they are feeling empathy already for the poor man who has just lost the very last of his people in a great battle, they are already completely conditioned and are already feeling sympathy, empathy and sadness, sorrow and various other names for the 6th sense of human emotion.

Is this not just another piece of evidence and display of the cunning, manipulative, modus operandi of Joseph Smith?

[_Dcharle]

It has been my experience when speaking with TBM's, no matter what evidence is laid out before them, they can always override the evidence because they have an emotional witness of the truth. It does not matter what you provide for them, they have a "higher" knowledge that Trump's any facts you could show them. This "spiritual witness" allows them to entrench into their position and ignore the realities before them. I find this to be very dangerous, when people allow their emotions to override reason we have a problem, this is when we start to get planes flown into buildings.

This is where we have our biggest breakdown when discussing the issues around Mormon history, I see it more pragmatically, they see it emotionally, when I see fraud, they see someone trying to overcome weakness such as Joseph Smith - the list could go on. Essentially the emotional witness gives us an "override" function in our brains allowing us the ability to suspend judgment and defer to an emotion witness as the source of truth.

It isn't an emotional response. It's a very practical response. If Mormonism is true (ie man can speak with God), then God should be able to respond and answer us. The only reason to believe Mormonism is anything but a fraud and a hoax is IF God tells you it is true. It is based on a God really existing and being able to answer us today as he did with Joseph Smith. This is Moroni's promise by the way. One should seek and speak with God and do what God tells you to do.

No, pragmatism is not using emotion, it's viewing things are they are...

[_Tobin]

It isn't an emotional response. It's a very practical response. If Mormonism is true (ie man can speak with God), then God should be able to respond and answer us. The only reason to believe Mormonism is anything but a fraud and a hoax is IF God tells you it is true. It is based on a God really existing and being able to answer us today as he did with Joseph Smith. This is Moroni's promise by the way. One should seek and speak with God and do what God tells you to do.

No, pragmatism is not using emotion, it's viewing things are they are...

I didn't claim anything different. Mormons, who have seen, spoken with and experienced God as any other real person in their lives, know that in fact God lives and exists. I was simply pointing out to you the difference between "investigators" of Mormonism (those that wish to believe) and those that know there is a God. I'm part of the latter group so I don't buy the argument it is an emotional response. For me, it is simply a fact and I don't care what you believe. You are wrong.

[Guest]

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