Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_Albion]

You mean as opposed to your world view which fits Biblical scripture to fit the unorthodox views of Mormonism. I suppose to some degree it is human nature to see things according our worldview but to accuse me of such is arrogant and does fit into your oft stated position where you see yourself as "spiritually" above the fray....as if that is something you are innocent of. While not claiming to be any kind of expert on early church history, I do know the the Council of Nicea was convened to codify the beliefs of the church on many issues including the issue of the Trinity. From this the church recognized what the apostles and prophets had always taught -- that the Messiah shares the nature of God, as does the Holy Spirit. One in nature and deity "neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance." The collective church teaches it, I believe scripture supports it, I believe that scripture.
I offered in my original post no real reference to history but legitimately asked a question of gdemetz because he put up Joseph Smith's vision, supposedly of the Father and Son, as proof of their separateness. I do not think in any way that debate and discussion on a deep subject like the nature of God and his Son, as prayerfully discussed, understood and learned through study by early Christians, compares remotely with the differing accounts from Joseph Smith of such a supposedly momentous event as a claimed appearance of the living and holy God and his Son. I hardly think that if it were real he would have left out such important details as to who was actually there in his first account. One is a position arrived at after study and prayer (something you claim as your own process to discern truth) the other a supposedly simple, eye witness account of what he claimed to have seen.
You may include "unnumbered people" in you argument against the Christian Trinity. I submit that there are vastly more "unnumbered people" who do accept it. But since neither group is proof for or against, I'll rely on the promptings of the Holy Spirit as I read and study scripture which is ultimately the only thing to which I am accountable...your superior spiritual plane not withstanding.

[_Franktalk]

Albion,

The Mormon church attempted to wipe out the Trinity view back in time. All of the old writings that did not agree with three God idea were burned and those who still held on to the Trinity view were banished or killed. I find it hard to understand why it is that you can hold onto a view that was purged from existence. Oh wait, that was the RCC who purged the three God idea and burned all of the supporting documents. And of course killed those who would not go along with the program.

[_jo1952]

You mean as opposed to your world view which fits Biblical scripture to fit the unorthodox views of Mormonism. I suppose to some degree it is human nature to see things according our worldview but to accuse me of such is arrogant and does fit into your oft stated position where you see yourself as "spiritually" above the fray....as if that is something you are innocent of.

Albion,

Everybody sees through their own world view. That is why, when it comes to God, we need to leave our minds opened so that the Holy Spirit is able to even reach our spirit. It is why so many believers cannot get past a milk understanding of the Gospel. They cannot let go of the world. This is why I say that if we are not progressing in our journey and having more and more Truth revealed to us, that something is wrong.

While not claiming to be any kind of expert on early church history, I do know the the Council of Nicea was convened to codify the beliefs of the church on many issues including the issue of the Trinity. From this the church recognized what the apostles and prophets had always taught -- that the Messiah shares the nature of God, as does the Holy Spirit. One in nature and deity "neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance." The collective church teaches it, I believe scripture supports it, I believe that scripture.

If you have enough time to spare, you will enjoy studying early church history. The first Council of Nicea (325AD) was convened because the Roman Emperor Constantine demanded that the church make a decision about the nature of God because of all of the in-fighting going on in the church over the nature of God. Constantine was is favor the Trinity Dogma (at least as it was understood at the time), and his influence over the Bishops was great. Far less than 50% of all of the Bishops actually went - some refused to go because they knew that Constantine's influence would pre-determine the conclusions (as opposed to the influence of the Holy Spirit determining the conclusions). Thus, without a majority, those in attendance voted on what would become acceptable belief on the nature of God. Immediately, anyone in the church who did not also believe as they had voted upon, became heretics. By 385AD, heretics were being burned at the stake. The following is a good article to read about how heretics were treated. It is disturbing.

http://www.heretication.information/_heretics.html

I offered in my original post no real reference to history but legitimately asked a question of gdemetz because he put up Joseph Smith's vision, supposedly of the Father and Son, as proof of their separateness. I do not think in any way that debate and discussion on a deep subject like the nature of God and his Son, as prayerfully discussed, understood and learned through study by early Christians, compares remotely with the differing accounts from Joseph Smith of such a supposedly momentous event as a claimed appearance of the living and holy God and his Son. I hardly think that if it were real he would have left out such important details as to who was actually there in his first account. One is a position arrived at after study and prayer (something you claim as your own process to discern truth) the other a supposedly simple, eye witness account of what he claimed to have seen.

Get back to me after you read the article I referenced. It may change how you currently feel. If it does not, then I would have to wonder about your ability to discern the Holy Spirit, as opposed to either mischievous spirits or demonic spirits. Why do I say this? The two great commandments Jesus taught us were:

Matthew 22:36-40 (KJV)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Inasmuch as we are supposed to follow Jesus and become like Him, it boggles my mind that the church felt justified in not only to judge others, but to take the property of heretics, ruin their ability to support their families, and finally, to take their lives simply because the heretic would not agree with the beliefs of the RCC. The rosy picture you paint of church history and the Trinity Dogma: I do not think in any way that debate and discussion on a deep subject like the nature of God and his Son, as prayerfully discussed, understood and learned through study by early Christians, compares remotely with the differing accounts from Joseph Smith of such a supposedly momentous event as a claimed appearance of the living and holy God and his Son. , is naïve. Most assuredly it does NOT remotely compare with the evolving understanding and teachings of Joseph Smith. Thank God for that!!!!

You may include "unnumbered people" in you argument against the Christian Trinity. I submit that there are vastly more "unnumbered people" who do accept it. But since neither group is proof for or against, I'll rely on the promptings of the Holy Spirit as I read and study scripture which is ultimately the only thing to which I am accountable...your superior spiritual plane not withstanding.

Jews do not believe in the Trinity, many, many believers of Christ do not believe in the Trinity, Islam does not believe in the Trinity, etc. About 1/3 of the world is Christian---and not all of those Christians believe in the Trinity. I submit that the majority of mankind does not believe the Trinity Dogma.

Blessings,

jo

[_Albion]

Joseph Smith's various vision accounts were not an "evolving understanding and teaching". They were continuous changed stories of what he claimed to have seen. Different from one account to another. Obviously, Jews don't believe in the Trinity since they don't accept Christ in the first place...Muslims don't accept Christ since they don't accept his claims but only see him in a line of prophets less important that their own false prophet. I think a growing majority in the world do not believe in any God but I would not be so presumptuous as to claim any number of Christian believers as in that group. You simply don't know.

I will read your site but the attitude of the early church with regard to persecutions has no direct bearing on the validity of the actual doctrine which churches have had every opportunity to change in the light of study over centuries.

[_Albion]

Joseph Smith's various vision accounts were not an "evolving understanding and teaching". They were continuous changed stories of what he claimed to have seen. Different from one account to another. Obviously, Jews don't believe in the Trinity since they don't accept Christ in the first place...Muslims don't accept Christ since they don't accept his claims but only see him in a line of prophets less important that their own false prophet. I think a growing majority in the world do not believe in any God but I would not be so presumptuous as to claim any number of Christian believers as in that group. You simply don't know.

I will read your site but the attitude of the early church with regard to persecutions has no direct bearing on the validity of the actual doctrine which churches have had every opportunity to change in the light of study over centuries.

[_gdemetz]

And, the reason that they don't believe it is that three gods as one being is just totally dumb!!! By the way Albion, Joseph Smith's accounts don't contradict!

[_Albion]

I think you'd better check out Mormon Think and Mormons in Transition sites. They have some interesting material that contradicts you view.

[_Franktalk]

I think a growing majority in the world do not believe in any God but I would not be so presumptuous as to claim any number of Christian believers as in that group. You simply don't know.

A majority in the world don't believe in God????? Where did you get that idea?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_re ... opulations

So anyone who does not believe in exactly what you believe are classified as "do not believe in God"? You have just condemned billions to hell. Not so sure that will work out for you in the future.

[_jo1952]

Joseph Smith's various vision accounts were not an "evolving understanding and teaching". They were continuous changed stories of what he claimed to have seen. Different from one account to another. Obviously, Jews don't believe in the Trinity since they don't accept Christ in the first place...Muslims don't accept Christ since they don't accept his claims but only see him in a line of prophets less important that their own false prophet.

Rats....I see that you have the same problem a lot of us run into when a post we make shows up twice. You can go through the edit feature and just delete all of your comments in one of them; and then write "duplicate post", or something similar.

In the first part of the Bible, through the Great Flood, the story of Noah, and the building of the Tower of Babel, and the scattering of the peoples when their language was confounded, and up to the time of Abraham, the Bible contains the story of God's relationship with all of mankind. However, once He makes His covenant with Abraham, the Bible focuses more on His dealings with Abraham. By the time Jacob is born and renamed Israel, the Bible then focuses on God's chosen people; as this is eventually the people to and through whom He sent His Only Begotten Son, Jesus, to be born in the flesh. Even when some of the Tribes of Israel are "lost", the focus remains on David's lineage.

God is NOT a respecter of persons, nor does He change. He continued to love ALL of His children - not just the Israelites. I think it is unwise, even foolish and arrogant of Christendom to not think about how God continued His relationship with those who were not of the House of Israel. Also, consider the Tribes of Israel who have been "lost". They were not literally "lost". Wherever they went, God still knows them and He knows where they are. The Bible, however, continues to remain focused on the Tribe of Israel through whom Jesus is born.

I really don't think that Christendom gives much thought to this at all. Yet it just is not reasonable to believe that God would STOP being concerned with, or to STOP loving the rest of mankind, or to STOP communicating with them. Here is some of what I have previously posted on this forum concerning this subject:

I believe, that just as in Old Testament and New Testament times, God continues to communicate with His children through prophets all over the earth whose teachings are manifested through many different religions. I also believe the following passage (which, by the way, should put an end to the incorrect interpretation of the Book of Revelation wherein some people believe there will be no further revelation and/or prophecies):

Acts 2:17 (KJV)

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

I believe that these occurrences will take place in all religions. I believe in universal salvation----that even the Sons of Perdition will eventually obtain salvation even if it means their intelligences and spirits will need to be reorganized in order for each spirit entity to achieve salvation. I also believe, in that, God is eternal, and that we are also eternal, that all will continue to progress either in this world, or in another world, until we become exalted beings who are One with God. Eternity has no beginning and no end. Our existence on this earth in our physical body DOES have a beginning and an end; however, inasmuch as we are eternal, our spirit can achieve Exaltation through a progression of entering a new body either here or in another world or worlds until God's desire is realized. His desire is that we ALL return to Him. His “will” will be done all in accordance with our own personal progression and exercise of our own free will, using the pathway which He, in His infinite mercy, has provided.

It is not a coincidence that elements in all world religions reflect so many similar ideas and accounts of the same events. The covenant made with Abraham did not end God's communication with His children who were scattered, or who have become "lost". They have their own Holy Scriptures to show that God continued to communicate with them. God's purposes are being realized in all of mankind. They, too, have had Prophets. Holy men have also risen amongst them. What they did NOT have was the Law of Moses. Christ was not born among them. However, Christ does speak of them:

John 10:16 (KJV)

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

For there to be "one fold and one shepherd", then all of mankind will become part of that fold and Christ will be the shepherd of that one fold.

Concerning those who do not have the Law of Moses, we are taught:

Romans 2:11-16 (KJV) (with comments)

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish [all of mankind suffers the death of their physical body] without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

He that has ears, let him hear.

I think a growing majority in the world do not believe in any God but I would not be so presumptuous as to claim any number of Christian believers as in that group. You simply don't know.

I think that the majority in the world DO believe in God. They just do not happen to agree with Christendom's version of God; and they have given Him a different names by which they call Him.

Albion, you ARE being so presumptuous as to claim any number of Christian believers are in the group of those who do not believe in God. That is because you are demanding that they believe the Trinity Dogma or they could not possibly be believers in Christ. As soon as Christendom developed the Trinity Dogma and began to judge others who did not agree with this man-made dogma as damned for eternity, they effectively closed the gates of Heaven to them. They became the Christian Era Pharisees.

I believe in Christ; I cannot remember a time in my life when I didn't believe. I joined the LDS Church when I was 22 years old. This did not cause me to stop believing in Christ. He is, and always will be, my Beloved Savior who was crucified for the sins of the world. The LDS Church teaches the same thing as Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (KJV)

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Remember also that even though Paul (as Saul) was persecuting and causing the death of the Saints, that God counted Saul's actions as righteousness because Saul was serving Him. Even though Saul had not accepted Christ as the Messiah, he was serving God because he thought that the Saints were blasphemous in teaching and believing that Christ had come. The Holy Spirit had not yet reached his spirit; he was not held accountable to whatever Truth had not yet been revealed to him.

OTOH, Christians who claim they have received the Holy Spirit, who then go around judging and damning others for eternity (and in the past who also killed them) and persecute others who also believe in Christ but disagree with their version of God, will have some serious explaining to do. Not only are they breaking the two great commandments, they are also forgetting that:

Matthew 7:2 (KJV)

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

I will read your site but the attitude of the early church with regard to persecutions has no direct bearing on the validity of the actual doctrine which churches have had every opportunity to change in the light of study over centuries.

You are basing your beliefs in the "study over centuries" of man's interpretations of Scripture. Jesus did not teach us that man would lead us to All Truth; He taught us that the Holy Spirit will lead us to All Truth. Inasmuch as God is a living God, and each of us go on a personal journey in our relationship with God, I do not allow the dictates of men (especially those who are dead) to determine what I may or may not believe. My faith is in our living God; my beliefs continue to grow and expand in accordance with what the Holy Spirit teaches me is Truth. I do not depend upon man's beliefs or teachings for my salvation.

Blessings,

jo

[_gdemetz]

Albion, you still can't seem to understand what we believe can you?! When we say "one God," we mean Godhead! Can you understand that?