The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

[_gdemetz]

You're wrong. In the first place, the word "virgin" in Isaiah chapter 7 is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word "Alma" or "Almah" which means young woman. In the second place, the sign is not of a virgin. How can someone tell as a sign by looking at a woman whether she is a virgin or not?! The sign was that the land would be void of its two kings. In the third place, the event you are referring to was before she was "OVERSHADOWED" by the Most High. How do virgins conceive? I have news for you. Virgins don't give birth. They conceive by the help of a man!

[_madeleine]

You're wrong. In the first place, the word "virgin" in Isaiah chapter 7 is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word "Alma" or "Almah" which means young woman. In the second place, the sign is not of a virgin. How can someone tell as a sign by looking at a woman whether she is a virgin or not?! The sign was that the land would be void of its two kings. In the third place, the event you are referring to was before she was "OVERSHADOWED" by the Most High. How do virgins conceive? I have news for you. Virgins don't give birth. They conceive by the help of a man!

I didn't quote Isaiah.

Other than that, you are the evidence for why Mormonism is not a Christan religion. God copulating with a human .... pagan rubbish...a depraved god that is a false god.

[_gdemetz]

You have the perfect right to swim in all the ignorance that you wish to, but the fact remains that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the perfect fit for the restitution of all things! You so-called Christians love to quote the Bible, but you don't understand it hardly at all. Do you understand; "Ye are gods and all of you are the children of the Most High"? Probably not. Do you understand; "else why are they baptized for the dead..." Probably not!

[_madeleine]

You have the perfect right to swim in all the ignorance that you wish to, but the fact remains that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the perfect fit for the restitution of all things! You so-called Christians love to quote the Bible, but you don't understand it hardly at all. Do you understand; "Ye are gods and all of you are the children of the Most High"? Probably not. Do you understand; "else why are they baptized for the dead..." Probably not!

Believe what you will, just know that you are stumbling around in a fog, blinded by false prophets and false teachings. I don't believe God will judge you for believing lies, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have a care for your soul.

[_Franktalk]

Believe what you will, just know that you are stumbling around in a fog, blinded by false prophets and false teachings. I don't believe God will judge you for believing lies, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have a care for your soul.

When I read the Bible for the first time I was not holding on to any former doctrines. I had heard of some ideas but I knew people had many ways to view scripture. I wanted to see what it said for itself. So I read it and formed my own views based on what I read and not what was taught by man. I will tell you that the LDS Church has the doctrine that matches what I interpreted from the Bible. What man has done over the ages is change what is there. But if you read what is there without any preconceived notions it is obvious it does not match what was handed down through the RCC. And the Protestants did not go back and re-evaluate doctrine when they split. The Eastern Orthodox is better but still was screwed up by the council of Nicaea. I have spent many hours studying the early church fathers and have traced much of the man made doctrine. Even Peter is a type for the restored Church. You must ask yourself what were they talking about in the New Testament when they said that false teachings were already getting into the church? Then look closely at the letters to the seven churches in Revelation. You will see what is in the RCC and the Protestant churches. So yes there is a restored doctrine. You may not see it. Many do not.

[_Themis]

When I read the Bible for the first time I was not holding on to any former doctrines. I had heard of some ideas but I knew people had many ways to view scripture. I wanted to see what it said for itself. So I read it and formed my own views based on what I read and not what was taught by man.

You can delude yourself all you want. You cannot really extricate yourself from all the ideas and influences of your past, nor the way you want to interpret what you read.

[_Franktalk]

You can delude yourself all you want. You cannot really extricate yourself from all the ideas and influences of your past, nor the way you want to interpret what you read.

So free will goes away and we all become determinist? I think not. You may flow in the wind but I do not. There are some things which are solid to hold on to. But many have no root and get tossed from one idea to the next. My personal experiences are way more powerful than any argument you could offer. You just don't know what your talking about. In that you share a common trait with many.

[_madeleine]

Believe what you will, just know that you are stumbling around in a fog, blinded by false prophets and false teachings. I don't believe God will judge you for believing lies, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have a care for your soul.

When I read the Bible for the first time I was not holding on to any former doctrines. I had heard of some ideas but I knew people had many ways to view scripture. I wanted to see what it said for itself. So I read it and formed my own views based on what I read and not what was taught by man. I will tell you that the LDS Church has the doctrine that matches what I interpreted from the Bible. What man has done over the ages is change what is there. But if you read what is there without any preconceived notions it is obvious it does not match what was handed down through the RCC. And the Protestants did not go back and re-evaluate doctrine when they split. The Eastern Orthodox is better but still was screwed up by the council of Nicaea. I have spent many hours studying the early church fathers and have traced much of the man made doctrine. Even Peter is a type for the restored Church. You must ask yourself what were they talking about in the New Testament when they said that false teachings were already getting into the church? Then look closely at the letters to the seven churches in Revelation. You will see what is in the RCC and the Protestant churches. So yes there is a restored doctrine. You may not see it. Many do not.

Presumptive and maybe arrogant. You don't know me or my experiences.

1 Peter 2:20 Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation

Peter isn't a type of a restored church, he is the Rock on which Christ's Church is built. The Mormon "great apostasy" is a lie, that you have believed. Just because you believe it doesn't make it the truth. Twisting scripture to suit your own purposes is nothing but a heresy, one that puts man at the center, and not God. Joseph Smith was adept at this, but he was not unique.

[_Themis]

You can delude yourself all you want. You cannot really extricate yourself from all the ideas and influences of your past, nor the way you want to interpret what you read.

So free will goes away and we all become determinist? I think not. You may flow in the wind but I do not. There are some things which are solid to hold on to. But many have no root and get tossed from one idea to the next.

I'm not suggesting we lose free will. If I had I would never have come to a conclusion the LDS church is not true. I am saying that you cannot get rid of these other influences you wanted to claim to.

My personal experiences are way more powerful than any argument you could offer.

Sure, but the same is said from others who disagree with you. The spiritual experience can be very powerful and very emotional. Emotions are one of the best ways to over ride reason and logic, so yes I understand where you are coming from.

You just don't know what your talking about. In that you share a common trait with many.

At least my posts have some coherency to them.

[_Franktalk]

Presumptive and maybe arrogant. You don't know me or my experiences.

1 Peter 2:20 Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation

Peter isn't a type of a restored church, he is the Rock on which Christ's Church is built. The Mormon "great apostasy" is a lie, that you have believed. Just because you believe it doesn't make it the truth. Twisting scripture to suit your own purposes is nothing but a heresy, one that puts man at the center, and not God. Joseph Smith was adept at this, but he was not unique.

People who hold the truth are often taken as arrogant by those who don't know better. Here is a little on the great apostasy. (part 1)

In this commentary I will discuss many issues related to church history. I will point out events that developed because church leaders made terrible decisions. My purpose in describing these events is not to tear down the faith of anyone but to document the historical church. Our faith in Christ is directed at a living God and should be separate from the events of men. Many of the issues I will discuss are packed with emotion for many people. Opinions are strong and we all wrest with our own view of things. In that regard I am no different than anyone else reading this paper. Remember that these are ideas and opinions that have developed over time and are not of them self scripture. So hold on to your faith no matter what history has for us. History is just one more example that shows the wide gap between the actions of men and the actions of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost.

We are told to love God and love each other, these are the most important commandments. If we do these then most things fall in line and we do well. But some people love scripture and don’t keep their eye on the living God. So when some detail of a Church is exposed to them their faith may come under attack. Please keep in mind that the Holy Ghost is our witness on the earth and not the Word. The Word can bring us truth if we let the Holy Ghost guide us. So as I detail some events in Church history keep in mind that some of these events came from man and not God. In fact God warned us that the church would fall away and we may be deceived. These are huge forces and we exist in a weak state in the flesh. So hang onto your love of God and ask for strength in your prayers.

1John 5:7,8
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Many believe that Peter was the rock upon which the Christian church was to be built. I believe that interpretation of scripture is in error. Let us look at what is in scripture that has led many to consider Peter as the rock or foundation of the church.

Matthew 16
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

There is a great deal of scripture that deals with the witness of the Holy Ghost and how we are to follow the promptings of the spirit in our life, and we are to have the Holy Spirit guide the church as well. The rock that Jesus refers to is the revelation or witness from the Father that Peter received concerning Jesus. That foundation of spiritual witness and indwelling is what our personal relationship with God is founded in. Now Jesus did give Peter the keys of authority, but that authority can only be received by someone who has the Spirit of God in them. So before we go further we need to discuss the church and how it started to go apostate even while the Apostles were alive.

The apostate church history

The apostate church started way before the Apostles died. We see evidence in the written letters of the Apostles which clearly shows a drift from the correct structure of the church and the doctrines taught by the Apostles. What I would like to show is the sequence of steps that led to the downfall. There were additional misreads of scripture which helped the downfall as well. I will also describe those stumbling blocks. With this history of a past downfall, can we prevent events such as these from happening again? Only if we stay close to the Spirit.

I have found a real lack in the depth of knowledge of the apostate church. When I have asked exactly what is an apostate church I get very weak answers. So I have done my own study using scripture and the early church fathers to obtain the ideas and decisions which led to the downfall. Let me state that a drifting in the church does not mean the members have lost faith or are not saved. What has happened is the authority and understanding changed from the true message of God and the power to a point where the church lost its relationship with God. Individual members could still love God and be saved but the teachings and actions of the church were no longer in line with Christ’s original Church.

The fall of any church is a big priority for Satan. He uses the weaknesses of men to slowly move the church from one form to another. I can tell you that when a Church is led by members which are led by the Holy Ghost then that Church will not fall. But if any other idea, being, or process is used to run a church it is doomed.

There are many opinions mixed in the details that I will present. Feel free to disagree with any and all that I say. All I ask is everyone keep an open mind to the complexities of scripture.

So to start with let us look at what was happening while Jesus was still spreading the Word.

John 6
26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Here Christ is talking about the crowd that followed Him after they were fed by a miracle where a few fish and a little bread were used to feed a large crowd. The point is that the Words of the Lord did not bring the crowd back; the miracles did not bring the crowd back. What brought the crowd was the free meal that was offered. It was the weakness of the flesh which motivated the crowd. So here with Christ standing in front of them, and miracles being performed, the world was still stronger for those in the crowd. This is clearly a demonstration of the need for spiritual support.
Matthew 16
23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Here Peter an Apostle of Christ is called out by Christ because of his weak moment. So the influence of Satan is strong and will act against the will of God. Just moments before Peter was given the keys of authority. So how else do these weaknesses show up in the church? Let us use the seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation to supply us with some detail. Remember that John was on the Island of Patmos when he wrote this Book; so it would be around 90 AD. Some believe that John wrote this book around 60 AD. I believe that is an error.
Revelation 2
1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; ……
4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love…..
12And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; ……
14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate….
18And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write;………
20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Revelation 3
1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; ……
I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;…..
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

So what do we have here? We have people leaving their first love, which would be the love of God. The doctrine of Balaam is where you allow some worldly treats into the church. The doctrine of the Nicolaitanes is two-fold where you allow a church leader to rule over you; it also applies to the leader who allows this to happen. The comment on Jezebel refers to allowing a member to openly do wrong yet not be kicked out of the church. We also see that those who lack a zeal for God are not doing well in the eyes of the Lord. Last we have people who wrap themselves with the riches of the world yet starve their soul. So while John was still on the Isle Patmos the weight of the world and the tempting of Satan was already causing the church and its members to drift from the original foundations.
Now in John 6 and Matthew 16 these events were before Pentecost. But the problems in the churches in Revelation were after Pentecost. Therefore, many of the same problems existed before and after the Holy Ghost descended upon the Earth. But the church was growing, and even with some problems, the Holy Ghost managed to help many into salvation; more on a personal level than one on a church level. We will see that soon after 90 AD the thoughts of men started to form doctrine just as the Pharisees had done with the Law of Moses before Christ came.
For the individuals it seems that the following applies:
Matthew 13
18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Now, some teachers are confused by verse 22. They do not understand that they can be choking the word according to their personal interpretation of it. Yet, when they teach the word, the hearer may hear a different message…the one that was intended, because the hearer may hear with the power of the Holy Ghost. Thus the teacher cannot see how his own interpretation of the word is “choked”, because he sees that the word he has spoken is bringing people to Christ. Thus he thinks that his interpretation is correct; being blind to the fact that what he hears in that same word is a choked version of the word. What that teacher does not realize is, it is not his power of speaking/teaching which is converting a person to Christ. Rather, it is the power of the Holy Ghost which allows the person hearing to hear the true message of God and that true message with the help of the Holy Ghost does the converting.

Acts 2
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

When filled with the Spirit one can speak with anothers tongue. It is the Spirit that may give you utterance. It is the Spirit that allows someone to hear the true message of God. If someone speaks the true message but the hearer does not have the Spirit then the words mean nothing to the hearer. This is what is being said in Matthew 13 verse 19. When scripture says let them that have ears hear it means spiritual ears to hear. Because we all have ears but few have ears to hear the truth of God.

Another key here is in Mattew 13 verse 23 where it says “and understandeth it”, knowing that scripture is only discerned spiritually; those who are on good ground are spiritual. When the Apostles died off with the exception of John, men started to ask questions about scripture, and as men they were not satisfied with not knowing (lacking in the spirit). So some scripture was interpreted in a wide variety of ways. This led some early church fathers to write down what they believed was heresy and what was not. Although this was well intended, it set the stage for all that followed. As man wrote and had some writings accepted as truth, then the ideas of man instead of God started to modify the interpretation of scripture. Some men were held in high esteem for their knowledge and ability to explain those areas that were difficult. Unknowingly, they became fools for Satan. Here is a link to a list of heresies written down by Irenaeus in 175 to 185 AD. Not very interesting reading.

http://www.gnosis.org/library/advh1.htm

Most of the heresies were centered on people trying to pull in Greek or Roman gods into the Gospel. There was also an early attempt to bring in Greek philosophy into the Gospel. But with all kinds of people doing their own thing someone had to step up and lay down some rules. Best of intentions. Now it appears to me that many of the early leaders were not led by the Holy Ghost. It is possible that they loved the Word and not God. But there are some exceptions. To my mind Polycarp is solid in spirit. There are only a very few things written by him that have survived; but they clearly show a mind like an Apostle. Here is a small sample of a letter to the church of Philippi.

Polycarp 2:1
“Wherefore gird up your loins and serve God in fear and truth, forsaking the vain and empty talking and the error of the many, for that ye have believed on Him that raised our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead and gave unto him glory and a throne on His right hand;
unto whom all things were made subject that are in heaven and that are on the earth; to whom every creature that hath breath doeth service; who cometh as judge of quick and dead; whose blood God will require of them that are disobedient unto Him.”

We can see from the above that even by the days of Polycarp he believed that there were already MANY who were in error. I think we can see that Polycarp is focused on the praise of God. If you wish to read more use this link:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... tfoot.html

Now Polycarp was believed to be a disciple of John. The Polycarp writings were from 110 to 140 AD. So he is close in time and known to have direct contact with Apostles. To me his writings are spirit filled.

More to come.