The Bottom Line

[_Gunnar]

There are presently Messianic Jews which accept the Lord Jesus Christ as having come already as their Messiah. Such Jews are indeed saved. There is also a future group of Jews, at least 144 thousand, during the Tribulation Period, who will come to realize that the Anti-Christ is evil and that Jesus was/is indeed the Messiah. This prophecy has not been fulfilled.

ALL Jews will be saved, Messianic or not; regardless of when they lived upon the earth. And, regardless of whether or not they were among those who were blinded to Christ's true identity.

Blessings,

jo

See what I mean by my last post?

[_jo1952]

Exactly! One of the most fascinating and telling things about this whole discussion is how often those arguing against my OP say things that inadvertently reinforce the very conclusion they are trying to refute! And they still can't see that!

As has been repeatedly pointed out, they still have not been able to provide a plausible explanation for how one is to reliably distinguish between a prompting of the HG and something that is merely a product of our own imagination and/or what we were already predisposed to believe. It remains blazingly obvious that the vast majority of those who claim inspiration from the HG are mistaken and/or lying about the source of their inspiration, since there are so many mutually contradictory belief systems that claim that as the source of their convictions (unless, of course, God capriciously and mischieviously gives different answers to different people at different times to keep us in a state of confusion).

Granted, we human beings are fallible, and even when we rely on the best available evidence, we sometimes err. However, the only realistic hope we have of eventually correcting those errors is to continually seek out and add to our evidence base, and honestly and repeatedly reexamine our previously arrived at conclusions in the light of new and more complete and relevant evidence, as it becomes available, and be willing to modify or reject even our most deeply cherished convictions when warranted by newer, more complete evidence.

On the other hand, the surest way to guarantee and perpetuate error is faith, untempered or unsupported by hard evidence and sound reason.

In short, I recognize no higher or more reliable arbiter of truth than sound, objective evidence and sound reason based on such evidence, though even that is not invariably infallible (at least, not in the short run).

Hello Gunnar!!

You have just described the method whereby man walks his physical walk while in the world. However, you have also just described the method whereby man walks his faith-filled spiritual walk. Those being born of the Spirit and awakening to their True self use all of the same methods of determining who is trying to guide them from the spiritual realm. The more that is revealed to them from the spiritual realm which comes from God vs the adversary, the more adjusting they do --- even to their most cherished preconceived beliefs. The only difference between the two is that the worldly walk is based on physical evidences they see and experience; the spiritual walk is based upon spiritual evidences they see and experience. Just like you have described wherein man can make errors until more evidence is made known, those who are awakening spiritually will also make errors until more has been revealed to them. There is a constant re-aligning and adjusting; which provides a greater understanding of previously accumulated spiritual knowledge, and better expanded upon understanding of scriptural interpretation. Just like more physical knowledge expands upon and provides a greater understanding of previously accumulated physical knowledge.

We are not in disagreement; we are talking past each other.

Blessings,

jo

[Guest]

ALL Jews will be saved, Messianic or not; regardless of when they lived upon the earth. And, regardless of whether or not they were among those who were blinded to Christ's true identity.

Blessings,

jo

See what I mean by my last post?

All Jews apparently were not saved or the rich "Jew" would have never have ended up asking Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water because he was so hot and dry. Now, there is a truth Jesus Christ did reveal and this is as I accept it. The only pre-crucifixion/resurrection Jews who went to the holding place Paradise, were those who believed God would save them and that it had nothing to do with their sacrafices and ability to keep the LAW. The sacrafices only represented what the Messiah would come to accomplish for real and forever HIMSELF. The sacrafices acted as an illustration of Christ.

[Guest]

Hello Gunnar!!

You have just described the method whereby man walks his physical walk while in the world. However, you have also just described the method whereby man walks his faith-filled spiritual walk. Those being born of the Spirit and awakening to their True self use all of the same methods of determining who is trying to guide them from the spiritual realm. The more that is revealed to them from the spiritual realm which comes from God vs the adversary, the more adjusting they do --- even to their most cherished preconceived beliefs. The only difference between the two is that the worldly walk is based on physical evidences they see and experience; the spiritual walk is based upon spiritual evidences they see and experience. Just like you have described wherein man can make errors until more evidence is made known, those who are awakening spiritually will also make errors until more has been revealed to them. There is a constant re-aligning and adjusting; which provides a greater understanding of previously accumulated spiritual knowledge, and better expanded upon understanding of scriptural interpretation. Just like more physical knowledge expands upon and provides a greater understanding of previously accumulated physical knowledge.

We are not in disagreement; we are talking past each other.

Jo, thank you for that! I appreciate the agreement you expressed with me, but the main point of disagreement between us, as I see it, is that you seem to be convinced that "spiritual experiences" are as reliable as or even more reliable than objective, physical evidence, and that the former should Trump the latter, whenever there is a conflict between the two (correct me if I am mistaken about that). This is what I consider to be so obviously false, and potentially dangerous. You see, there is a strong tendency for people with strong spiritual convictions to think they are entitled or even obligated to ignore hard, objective evidence, no matter how incontrovertable, that conflicts with those spiritual convictions. This has historically led to horrible mistakes, injustice and suffering. Unless those spiritual experiences are backed up by good physical, objective evidence, or, at least, not in direct conflict with it, they are worthless, as far as I am concerned.

[_jo1952]

Yet another example of how two people who each claim inspiration from the HG disagree with each other! And I don't mean only their respective beliefs concerning the salvation of Jews.

Hello Gunnar!

Believe it not, I purposely posted my comment to LittleNipper even knowing how you would receive it.

Do you see the same types of exchanges between non-believers concerning various types of topics? I sure do! Even when God is not part of the topic man still argues; usually one poster desiring to win the argument. Sometimes posters make the claim that they have won the argument; yet others do not see or agree that he has "won".

Why are you surprised that man argues about God? Man argues about everything! Everything we do, say, hear, think, experience while we are in the flesh, is meant to educate us and give us experience. I believe it's working! Without an opportunity to share (even though sometimes "sharing" is the very polite word for what is taking place), how can we "learn"----REALLY "learn" anything??

Just as much as you can be convinced that physical evidence is representative of the conclusion you have reached, and you will argue and argue with others who have reached a different conclusion than you, even though that same evidence is in front of all those who are arguing over it; so it is with our spirit to Spirit "evidence". In other words, some may think they are walking in the Spirit. However, it is not until they are TRULY walking in the Spirit -- and boy, at that time they WILL KNOW the difference -- they will not know they weren't previously walking in the Spirit.

As with learning about physical evidence and knowledge, the more you seek for the truth about that evidence and knowledge, the greater your resources to draw upon to test that evidence and knowledge until you reach a point that you have no doubts about the evidence and knowledge. Meanwhile, others with less experience and less knowledge are not able to agree with you; but they nevertheless think they are right. YOU may understand that this has taken place; but the one who does not agree with you has not yet reached your level of understanding. Yet still there is always the possibility that some kind of physical evidence will turn up that will cause you to adjust your "truth" (as you have already stated). It is not God that has caused you to reach your conclusion. It is not God that has caused the one who does not agree with you to reach their conclusion. It is MAN who caused the differences.

It is the same with a spiritual walk. It is MAN who causes the differences in perception and understanding. Once a person actually gives up his will in order to learn God's will, that person will begin to see with spiritual eyes; not through the eyes preprogramed with man's ideas. This can take years and years to develop the ability to begin a True spiritual walk; it must be done with earnest and constant seeking to finally realize. Likewise, it can take years and years of earthly learning to be able to understand what you are seeing in physical evidence. Do not be surprised that man argues over God the same way he argues about everything else. That is man's doing; not God's.

Blessings,

jo

[_jo1952]

Jo, thank you for that! I appreciate the agreement you expressed with me, but the main point of disagreement between us, as I see it, is that you seem to be convinced that "spiritual experiences" are as reliable as or even more reliable than objective, physical evidence, and that the former should Trump the latter, whenever there is a conflict between the two (correct me if I am mistaken about that). This is what I consider to be so obviously false, and potentially dangerous. You see, there is a strong tendency for people with strong spiritual convictions to think they are entitled or even obligated to ignore hard, objective evidence, no matter how seemingly incontrovertable, that conflicts with those spiritual convictions. This has historically led to horrible mistakes, injustice and suffering.

Hello Gunnar!

It has taken me my literal lifetime (which is now 60 years....ouch!) to get to where I am; but I have oh so much farther to go. I am not sure I will get there in this lifetime.

As I have already mentioned to Themis, I place my priorities with learning about the Kingdom of God. I also mentioned to Themis that if the global flood has only allegorical meaning, it is not going to change my relationship with God. I have no doubts that there are many things I don't have right about the physical world. I have less doubts about the Kingdom of God. The only reason I have any doubts about my knowledge about the Kingdom of God is because I am still blind to those parts of All Truth which have not yet been revealed to me. Since I am blind to them, I can't tell you what they are. There are still many passages in scripture which I do not yet understand. Hmm, I don't think it is accurate to say that I have doubts about the Kingdom of God. It is more accurate to say I don't know everything there is to know yet.

Many blessings, Gunnar!

Love,

jo

[_jo1952]

All Jews apparently were not saved or the rich "Jew" would have never have ended up asking Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water because he was so hot and dry. Now, there is a truth Jesus Christ did reveal and this is as I accept it. The only pre-crucifixion/resurrection Jews who went to the holding place Paradise, were those who believed God would save them and that it had nothing to do with their sacrafices and ability to keep the LAW. The sacrafices only represented what the Messiah would come to accomplish for real and forever HIMSELF. The sacrafices acted as an illustration of Christ.

Hello LittleNipper!

All Jews WILL be saved. Those who are not waiting in Paradise for their resurrection are spending "time" in spirit prison until they have paid the last farthing.

Christians do not have exclusivity to what Christ accomplished. Also, contrary to what misguided members of the LDS Church believe, the LDS Christians do not have exclusivity to what Christ accomplished.

Blessings,

jo

[_Gunnar]

Jo, after you posted your last post and before I read it, I edited my last post, adding this comment:

Unless those spiritual experiences are backed up by good physical, objective evidence, or, at least, not in direct conflict with it, they are worthless, as far as I am concerned.

I have been studying and struggling with these issues even longer than you have (if that means anything to you--I am 68), and the more I study science, history, religion and the holy scriptures, the more obvious the inadequacy and inherently self-delusional nature of the religious approach to discerning truth becomes to me.

Cheers!

[_Gunnar]

I also mentioned to Themis that if the global flood has only allegorical meaning, it is not going to change my relationship with God. I have no doubts that there are many things I don't have right about the physical world.

I just had to say I find that attitude infinitely more reasonable than insisting, despite overwhelming contrary evidence, that there was a literal, global flood! Congratulations for that!

I also greatly admire you for this comment:

Christians do not have exclusivity to what Christ accomplished. Also, contrary to what misguided members of the LDS Church believe, the LDS Christians do not have exclusivity to what Christ accomplished.

As we agreed on another thread, the truly important consideration is how we treat each other and succeed in making the world a little bit better place than it might have been had we never existed.

[_Franktalk]

Yet another example of how two people who each claim inspiration from the HG disagree with each other! And I don't mean only their respective beliefs concerning the salvation of Jews.

I am sure you know the story of the three blind men who describe an elephant. Each had his own view based on what he felt was the elephant. Because we are so limited in the spirit we all just get a piece but it is what we need. When people receive a truth they sometimes believe it is the only truth. This causes many statements that seem contradictory. And there are of course those who just read the ideas of men and they are all over the map. Much like your ideas of men that you yourself refer to. Where you have presented a picture of man's logic where it seems that men agree with each other the reality is of course vastly different. It is your perception and not the Christian that rest on murky mud. But it is a belief that you have and not fact. So all arguments will mean little to you.