Bible verse by verse

[Guest]

Psalm 11:1-7 To the Music Director from David

In the Lord I find shelter.
How can you tell me, "Run quickly like a bird to the mountains!

See how the wicked are readying their weapons, and loading their weapons, to shoot from the shadows at honest men.

If the supporting members are demolished, can the righteous do anything?”

The Lord is in his holy sanctuary.
The Lord is enthroned in heaven.
His eyes perceive and test humanity.

The Lord tests the righteous;
but he despises the wicked and the enjoyer of violence.

He will rain burning coals down upon the wicked,
fire, sulfur and scorching pyroclastic wind will be what they get to drink.

The Lord is righteous and loves righteousness;
the upright perceive Him.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 To the Overseer. -- By David. In Jehovah I trusted, how say ye to my soul, `They moved [to] Thy mountain for the bird?

2 For lo, the wicked tread a bow, They have prepared their arrow on the string, To shoot in darkness at the upright in heart.

3 When the foundations are destroyed, The righteous -- what hath he done?

4 `Jehovah [is] in his holy temple: Jehovah -- in the heavens [is] His throne. His eyes see -- His eyelids try the sons of men.

5 Jehovah the righteous doth try. And the wicked and the lover of violence, Hath His soul hated,

6 He poureth on the wicked snares, fire, and brimstone, And a horrible wind [is] the portion of their cup.

7 For righteous [is] Jehovah, Righteousness He hath loved, The upright doth His countenance see!'

[_The Erotic Apologist]

!!!QUIZ TIME!!!

For ten points, can you explain how the following is an example of begging the question?

LittleNipper: "Peter O'Toole was sort of good in Lawrence of Arabia but he didn't rise from the dead."
The Erotic Apologist: "Yes he did--or have you not seen Prometheus, yet?"
LittleNipper: "Peter O'Toole died a drunk."

Nipper, if you don't complete the quiz you'll get a zero as your final score...

[_LittleNipper]

You're the one who made up the list ---- I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate an example of each occurrence.

I have, many times. You would know this if you took the time to read other people's posts before cutting-and-pasting your latest wall-of-text. But because I'm such a nice guy, I'll take a few minutes to review some of your more egregious blunders. To wit:

Circular Logic & Begging the Question:
You rely almost exclusively on something called Presuppositional Apologetics. Unfortunately, Presuppositional Apologetics is essentially a systematized and institutionalized example of both circular logic and begging the question. (If you don't understand what this means you need to look it up, because this is important.)

False Attribution:
Your bizarre-o claims that Chinese ideograms, specifically han(3)dz(4), are directly related to the Book of Genesis are a perfect example of false attribution.

Deception:
Your attempts to minimize and obfuscate Protestantism's relationship with Antisemitism (specifically, the fact that Martin Luther's Antisemitic writings served as the intellectual foundation of the Holocaust) are perfect examples of deception.


!!!QUIZ TIME!!!

For ten points, can you explain how the following is an example of begging the question?

LittleNipper: "Peter O'Toole was sort of good in Lawrence of Arabia but he didn't rise from the dead."
The Erotic Apologist: "Yes he did--or have you not seen Prometheus, yet?"
LittleNipper: "Peter O'Toole died a drunk."


If you want examples of the remaining items on the list (special pleading, causal oversimplification, bait-and-switch) you'll have to do your own research and figure things out for yourself...because this is my day off and I'm planning to spend it by disassembling and repairing this cool old watch that was made in 1795:

It is very nice you have a hobby. I have repaired vintage Talking Machines. However, circular reasoning is exactly what Uniformitarians and evolutionists depend on. They cannot even consider that about some 10 thousand years ago GOD created a complete chronologically established universe. They have developed values and opinions based upon conjecture "supported" by the belief that "creation" had to be a natural process and so everything needed to go through a natural process from some point of forming to reach the point of its present condition. They cannot accept that many material things may simply have appeared fully formed and established at a divinely appointed moment. And that radiation measurements only presume to establish an age and not simply its divinely formed composition. So they use circular reasoning. As for deceit, some people will take out of context what they need to support their cause and throw out the rest without consideration of a broader deeper picture. Luther was tried and convicted by the Roman Catholic church. Was he an inferior heretic priest, a raciest, or a saint? I believe him to be a saint, but one who found his Savior and not himself a perfect being without flaws. This is what salvation is all about ---- it's a journey. Any person who denies Christ, cannot enter into the kingdom of God ----Jew or not.............................. And people who (no matter how fervent their faith in their traditions) become anti-christs when they work to deny the Messiah.

[Guest]

Psalm 12:1-8 For the Music Director. According to the low note of the male. By David

Help, Lord; for the saintly are no more; for the faithful ones have vanish from Adam.

They all speak conceitedly every with their neighbor; with flattering lips and with divided thoughts they speak.

The Lord will put away all that flatterer, and the braggart; who have said, "With our words we will prevail; our mouths are our own, no one lords over us."

For the oppression of the poor, for the groaning of the needy, I'm aroused, say the Lord; I will protect them from the sneerer.

The words of the Lord are pure; as refined silver in the furnace on earth, processed seven times.

You shall preserve them Lord ---- preserving them from this generation forever.

The wicked strut all around, when the vilest among man are exalted.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 To the Overseer, on the octave. -- A Psalm of David. Save, Jehovah, for the saintly hath failed, For the stedfast have ceased From the sons of men:

2 Vanity they speak each with his neighbour, Lip of flattery! With heart and heart they speak.

3 Jehovah doth cut off all lips of flattery, A tongue speaking great things,

4 Who said, `By our tongue we do mightily: Our lips [are] our own; who [is] lord over us?'

5 Because of the spoiling of the poor, Because of the groaning of the needy, Now do I arise, saith Jehovah, I set in safety [him who] doth breathe for it.

6 Sayings of Jehovah [are] pure sayings; Silver tried in a furnace of earth refined sevenfold.

7 Thou, O Jehovah, dost preserve them, Thou keepest us from this generation to the age.

8 Around the wicked walk continually, According as vileness is exalted by sons of men!

[_The Erotic Apologist]

However, circular reasoning is exactly what Uniformitarians and evolutionists depend on. They cannot even consider that about some 10 thousand years ago GOD created a complete chronologically established universe. They have developed values and opinions based upon conjecture "supported" by the belief that "creation" had to be a natural process and so everything needed to go through a natural process from some point of forming to reach the point of its present condition. They cannot accept that many material things may simply have appeared fully formed and established at a divinely appointed moment. And that radiation measurements only presume to establish an age and not simply its divinely formed composition. So they use circular reasoning.

Here's what's wrong with this. You're saying you should be allowed to use circular logic based on your assumption that others use circular logic.

In other words, you're saying two wrongs make a right.

As for deceit, some people will take out of context what they need to support their cause and throw out the rest without consideration of a broader deeper picture.

Yeah, and when we talk about Japanese imperialism, we need to remember that the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere was merely a protest movement against white supremacy. And Adolf Hitler made the trains run on time.

Luther was tried and convicted by the Roman Catholic church.

This has nothing to do with Luther's virulent Antisemitism.

Was he an inferior heretic priest, a raciest, or a saint?

He was without question a virulent Antisemite who ultimately advocated genocide.

I believe him to be a saint, but one who found his Savior and not himself a perfect being without flaws.

In other words, you're willing to sweep his advocacy of genocide under the rug.

Minimizing & concealing concealing Luther's Antisemitism = deception.

This is what salvation is all about ---- it's a journey.

You're overlooking the fact that Luther's "journey" went in the wrong direction. When he died he was further away from Christ than when he was still a priest.

Any person who denies Christ, cannot enter into the kingdom of God ----Jew or not.

Are you suggesting it's possible to embrace genocide without simultaneously rejecting Christ?

And people who (no matter how fervent their faith in their traditions) become anti-christs when they work to deny the Messiah.

See above.

[_LittleNipper]

As for deceit, some people will take out of context what they need to support their cause and throw out the rest without consideration of a broader deeper picture.

Yeah, and when we talk about Japanese imperialism, we need to remember that the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere was merely a protest movement against white supremacy. And Adolf Hitler made the trains run on time.

Luther was tried and convicted by the Roman Catholic church.

This has nothing to do with Luther's virulent Antisemitism.

Was he an inferior heretic priest, a raciest, or a saint?

He was without question a virulent Antisemite who ultimately advocated genocide.

I believe him to be a saint, but one who found his Savior and not himself a perfect being without flaws.

In other words, you're willing to sweep his advocacy of genocide under the rug. Minimizing Luther's Antisemitism = deception.

This is what salvation is all about ---- it's a journey.

You're overlooking the fact that Luther's "journey" went in the wrong direction. When he died he was further away from Christ than when he was still a priest.

Any person who denies Christ, cannot enter into the kingdom of God ----Jew or not.

Are you suggesting it's possible to embrace genocide without simultaneously rejecting Christ?

And people who (no matter how fervent their faith in their traditions) become anti-christs when they work to deny the Messiah.

See above.

Hitler murdered people with even Hebrew ancestry, even though many were converted Christians. Luther was upset with teachers of Judaism. Sorry, but Luther never murdered anyone. He certainly was powerful enough to have done that. Many german states became "Lutheran.' You must learn to look at the entire picture. I think you need a good whipping. And someone taking this out of context could say LittleNipper wants to beat up The Erotic Apologist! But saying that doesn't make me abusive. It is simply that you are an annoyance. Most of the others that I have butted heads with are at least not seeking the spotlight and have something to add rather than belittle... The fact that you fix watches seems to make you at least real rather than a prankster carton character. I do pray for you... And I can imagine that is what Luther did for Jews he butted heads with. He certainly didn't kill anyone.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Hitler murdered persuaded others to murder people with even Hebrew ancestry, even though many were converted Christians.

Fixed it for ya.

Luther was upset with teachers of Judaism.

Luther was upset? That's a good one, nipper.

Sorry, but Luther never murdered anyone.

Neither did Hitler. (See above.)

He certainly was powerful enough to have done that.

See above.

Many german states became "Lutheran.'

That's nice.

You must learn to look at the entire picture.

Right--that's why we can't allow ourselves to forget that Adolf Hitler also made the trains run on time.

I think you need a good whipping. And someone taking this out of context could say LittleNipper wants to beat up The Erotic Apologist! But saying that doesn't make me abusive.

You sound confused. Maybe you should take a nap.

It is simply that you are an annoyance.

TRANSLATION: I can't think of anything else to say so I'm going to start calling names instead.

Most of the others that I have butted heads with are at least not seeking the spotlight and have something to add rather than belittle...

On the contrary, I've added quite a lot to this discussion. Without me, you'd have no idea that Presuppositional Apologetics is a fancy term for circular logic.

The fact that you fix watches seems to make you at least real rather than a prankster carton character.

Why thank you.

I do pray for you...

Thanks. In return, I'll sacrifice a chicken and ask Thor to multiply your flocks and increase your male potency.

And I can imagine that is what Luther did for Jews he butted heads with.

Was that before or after he decided the Jews needed to be slaughtered?

He certainly didn't kill anyone.

Neither did Hitler. (See above.)

[_LittleNipper]

Hitler murdered persuaded others to murder people with even Hebrew ancestry, even though many were converted Christians.

Fixed it for ya.

Luther was upset with teachers of Judaism.

Luther was upset? That's a good one, nipper.

Sorry, but Luther never murdered anyone.

Neither did Hitler. (See above.)

He certainly was powerful enough to have done that.

See above.

Many german states became "Lutheran.'

That's nice.

You must learn to look at the entire picture.

Right--that's why we can't allow ourselves to forget that Adolf Hitler also made the trains run on time.

I think you need a good whipping. And someone taking this out of context could say LittleNipper wants to beat up The Erotic Apologist! But saying that doesn't make me abusive.

You sound confused. Maybe you should take a nap.

It is simply that you are an annoyance.

TRANSLATION: I can't think of anything else to say so I'm going to start calling names instead.

Most of the others that I have butted heads with are at least not seeking the spotlight and have something to add rather than belittle...

On the contrary, I've added quite a lot to this discussion. Without me, you'd have no idea that Presuppositional Apologetics is a fancy term for circular logic.

The fact that you fix watches seems to make you at least real rather than a prankster carton character.

Why thank you.

I do pray for you...

Thanks. In return, I'll sacrifice a chicken and ask Thor to multiply your flocks and increase your male potency.

And I can imagine that is what Luther did for Jews he butted heads with.

Was that before or after he decided the Jews needed to be slaughtered?

He certainly didn't kill anyone.

Neither did Hitler. (See above.)

You entirely get me wrong. I am not a Lutheran because of some of Luther's questionable teachings. However, Hitler placed men in power and told them to get rid of Jews. He put laws into practice in order to "legalize" the murder of Jews and steal their possessions. Luther said that those who didn't believe Jesus to be the Messiah should know better, and spoke of the rabbinical priests and rabbis in terms that Jesus did. Luther believed that Christ's CHURCH (body of all believers) replaced the Jews with regards to the promises God made to Israel. I believe that this is not the case. I believe the CHURCH has been grafted in; however, the Jews will come to eventually accept Jesus as their Messiah and that all the promises that GOD made to Abraham WILL eventually happen for the Jews. I believe that the very existence of the nation of ISRAEL today is a sign that this is indeed the case --- and it will happen according to the prophecies in the Bible.

The fact is that you do not believe in Thor. I do believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

[_LittleNipper]

Psalm 13:1-6 To the choir director: A psalm of David.

O Lord, how long will you ignore me? Forever?
How long will I not witness you?

How long must I struggle alone, with sorrow in my heart daily?
How long will my enemy have the upper hand?

Return and answer me, O Lord God!
Restore my joy, or I will die.

Don’t allow my enemies gloat, saying, “We have defeated him!”
Don’t let them be gleeful over my downfall.

I still trust in your unfailing love.
I rejoice because you saved me.

I will sing to the Lord because he is good to me.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 To the Overseer. -- A Psalm of David. Till when, O Jehovah, Dost Thou forget me? -- for ever? Till when dost Thou hide Thy face from me?

2 Till when do I set counsels in my soul? Sorrow in my heart daily? Till when is mine enemy exalted over me?

3 Look attentively; Answer me, O Jehovah, my God, Enlighten mine eyes, lest I sleep in death,

4 Lest mine enemy say, `I overcame him,' Mine adversaries joy when I am moved.

5 And I, in Thy kindness I have trusted, Rejoice doth my heart in Thy salvation.

6 I do sing to Jehovah, For He hath conferred benefits upon me!

[Guest]

Psalm 14:1-7 To the music director. Of David.

The fool imagines to himself, “God does not matter.”
Such are rotten, they do horrible things; there is no one who does good.

The Lord sees man from heaven to see if there are any who are smart, seeking God.

They are all off track, they are all unreasonable; there is no one who does anything correctly, no, not one.

Have they heard nothing, all the evildoers who swallow my people like bread, so they don't recognize the Lord?

They shall be terrorized, for God hangs only among the righteous.

You would ruin the plans of poor people, but the Lord will help them.

Who brings deliverance for Israel from Zion!
When the Lord returns from captivity his people, Jacob will rejoice; Israel will be happy.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 To the Overseer. -- By David. A fool hath said in his heart, `God is not;' They have done corruptly, They have done abominable actions, There is not a doer of good.

2 Jehovah from the heavens Hath looked on the sons of men, To see if there is a wise one -- seeking God.

3 The whole have turned aside, Together they have been filthy: There is not a doer of good, not even one.

4 Have all working iniquity not known? Those consuming my people have eaten bread, Jehovah they have not called.

5 There they have feared a fear, For God [is] in the generation of the righteous.

6 The counsel of the poor ye cause to stink, Because Jehovah [is] his refuge.

7 `Who doth give from Zion the salvation of Israel? When Jehovah doth turn back [To] a captivity of His people, Jacob doth rejoice -- Israel is glad!