Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

[_Dr. Shades]

[MODERATOR NOTE: Terrestrial-caliber comments have been split into the following thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22576

Tobin, while you're in the Celestial Forum, you aren't allowed to accuse anyone of anything or of being a certain way. You may only address the strength or weakness of a person's argument, hermetically sealed away from the person who makes it. To that end, please do not accuse anyone of whining, of having no scruples, etc. Those types of accusations belong in the Terrestrial Forum, not here.]

[_Themis]

Tobin,

Let me ask this question. Did you understand when Runtu and others brought up high heat technology in a thread discussing iron smelting, that it meant temperatures high enough to smelt iron. If yes, do you agree that the Olmec did not obtain high enough temperatures to smelt Iron.

[_Tobin]

Tobin, Let me ask this question. Did you understand when Runtu and others brought up high heat technology in a thread discussing iron smelting, that it meant temperatures high enough to smelt iron. If yes, do you agree that the Olmec did not obtain high enough temperatures to smelt Iron.

You are well aware of my views on how you approach this topic, so you will need to ask someone else. If you have something relevant, insightful, or the least bit interesting to add; I will be happy to comment then.

[_bcuzbcuz]

I know that there were several published books from those times that contained similar ideas, but my point was meant to say that Joseph Smith (as far as I know) was the only one that claimed that steel and other "undiscovered" items and life forms did exist in the pre-Columbian Americas. He claimed it was true, beyond doubt and from the mouth of God. Gospel in the most real sense.

This puts the words of Joseph Smith and the entire Book of Mormon in serious doubt if none of those items can be found in reliable, dateable layers.

If steel scimitars and chariot wheels do show up one day, we all may have to join (or rejoin) the Mormon church. I don't think it's the way to bet, though.

Time for a few facts.
Steel making was probably within the capabilities of pre-Columbian Americas. I include here a picture of smelting ore from Peru as depicted by this ceramic form.
http://www.mocheperuimages.com/stock_ph ... ed-worlds/
http://www.mocheperuimages.com/wp-conte ... _01183.jpg

This bowl clearly shows that the Moche people could smelt, using a kiln and humans as bellows. The Moche lived roughly between 200 BCE to 1000 AD

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/resear ... rgy_merkel
The upper picture depicting primitive smelting process, using lung power, is of primary importance. It is a modern re-enactment of the process.

http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-photo ... of-gold-in

This picture, from Girolamo Benzoni's, "La HIstoria del Mondo Nuovo" from 1565, depicts smelting of gold and silver amongst the Inca peoples. Note the fire in the background stoked by four people acting as bellows for the fire.

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corb ... 9e0b6a0498

The temperature requirements for steel can be easily referenced by anyone at Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel

The technology existed, in the Americas, whether one wants to call it iron age or not is immaterial, but it wasn't used for steel. The people of the Americas were not the slightest bit interested in producing iron or steel. There is zero evidence that they smelted any iron, whether mined or from meteors. It was an uninteresting metal for them. They smelted silver, gold and copper. Period.

[_Themis]

Tobin, Let me ask this question. Did you understand when Runtu and others brought up high heat technology in a thread discussing iron smelting, that it meant temperatures high enough to smelt iron. If yes, do you agree that the Olmec did not obtain high enough temperatures to smelt Iron.

You are well aware of my views on how you approach this topic, so you will need to ask someone else. If you have something relevant, insightful, or the least bit interesting to add; I will be happy to comment then.

The question is reasonable. I suspect you knew what Runtu and I meant by high heat technology, yet you later wanted to say the Olmecs had high heat technology, even though your own source showed it was at least 600 degrees centigrade less then needed to melt iron. Do you see why some of us suspect you are either not being honest here, or are not interested in real discussion. It seems you want more to defend the church regardless of the facts.

[_Quasimodo]

Hi,bcuz
Time for a few facts.
Steel making was probably within the capabilities of pre-Columbian Americas. I include here a picture of smelting ore from Peru as depicted by this ceramic form.
http://www.mocheperuimages.com/stock_ph ... ed-worlds/
http://www.mocheperuimages.com/wp-conte ... _01183.jpg

This bowl clearly shows that the Moche people could smelt, using a kiln and humans as bellows. The Moche lived roughly between 200 BCE to 1000 AD

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/resear ... rgy_merkel
The upper picture depicting primitive smelting process, using lung power, is of primary importance. It is a modern re-enactment of the process.

http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-photo ... of-gold-in

This picture, from Girolamo Benzoni's, "La HIstoria del Mondo Nuovo" from 1565, depicts smelting of gold and silver amongst the Inca peoples. Note the fire in the background stoked by four people acting as bellows for the fire.

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corb ... 9e0b6a0498

The temperature requirements for steel can be easily referenced by anyone at Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel

The technology existed, in the Americas, whether one wants to call it iron age or not is immaterial, but it wasn't used for steel. The people of the Americas were not the slightest bit interested in producing iron or steel. There is zero evidence that they smelted any iron, whether mined or from meteors. It was an uninteresting metal for them. They smelted silver, gold and copper. Period.

Hi,bcuz,

Yeah, I don't think anyone disputes that soft metals were worked and smelted. Maybe if the Native Americans had thought of it they would have figured out how to smelt iron. Although steel is much more complicated to make, once they had iron they also might have figured out how to make steel.

I think the point of the OP is that they never did. No evidence found anywhere. Which is a real problem for the Book of Mormon.

[_Themis]

The technology existed, in the Americas, whether one wants to call it iron age or not is immaterial, but it wasn't used for steel. The people of the Americas were not the slightest bit interested in producing iron or steel. There is zero evidence that they smelted any iron, whether mined or from meteors. It was an uninteresting metal for them. They smelted silver, gold and copper. Period.

I wouldn't say they were uninterested, but lacked the knowledge to get high temperatures necessary to smelt iron, or lacked knowledge that they could, or what it could mean to them. The Americas is a large place, and in Peru smelting of metal started much earlier then other areas. I would think people would figure at that adding air to the process increased the amount of heat, but many ancient methods were fairly crude, and obtaining high temperatures may not have been very effective use of resources. As time went on they certainly improved, but in most cases to late for Book of Mormon times. The problem is what we see on the ground, and what the text actually describes. Especially when apologists want Meso-America to be Book of Mormon lands. Metallurgy came after Book of Mormon times here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_America

[_Quasimodo]

The problem is what we see on the ground, and what the text actually describes. Especially when apologists want Meso-America to be Book of Mormon lands. Metallurgy came after Book of Mormon times here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_America

I've been try to think of a good analogy to refute some views expressed here regarding the sort of "evidence of absence is not absence of evidence" argument.

The best I can come up is the Roman occupation of Briton. From about 45 AD to around 400 AD the Romans ruled most of what is now England. They had a civilization that seems similar to that describe for the people of the Book of Mormon and in close to similar times.

Today, in cities like York and other former Roman towns, there is evidence of Roman occupation everywhere. Walls that are still standing. Roman columns that contain Latin inscriptions.

In York, the finding of Roman artifacts is a daily occurrence. In parts of York one can't plant a shrub in one's back yard without finding some sort of Roman artifact (coins, roofing tiles, etc.). Roman coins are so common in England that they have a relatively low value. Roman swords and armor are sometimes found still fairly intact.

The point is that if there were a similar civilization in the Americas at a similar time, the finding of artifacts of steel and iron would be just as common.

NONE have been found.

[_bcuzbcuz]

I wouldn't say they were uninterested, but lacked the knowledge to get high temperatures necessary to smelt iron, or lacked knowledge that they could, or what it could mean to them. The Americas is a large place, and in Peru smelting of metal started much earlier then other areas. I would think people would figure at that adding air to the process increased the amount of heat, but many ancient methods were fairly crude, and obtaining high temperatures may not have been very effective use of resources. As time went on they certainly improved, but in most cases to late for Book of Mormon times. The problem is what we see on the ground, and what the text actually describes. Especially when apologists want Meso-America to be Book of Mormon lands. Metallurgy came after Book of Mormon times here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_America

I made the statement about the Meso- and south American cultures not being interested in iron because no evidence has been found anywhere that iron was ever smelted. Iron is a boring metal compared to glittery gold, silver and copper. Hell, we still think the same way. Our medals for the olympics mirror these three metals.

I read your referenced article from Wikipedia. It refers to copper-bronze smelting which is only marginally less heat intensive than iron ore smelting (copper 1100°C, iron 1375°C). Given also that bog ores or precipatative iron ores are found throughout the northern Americas, iron ores would have probably been identified, but just lacked interest. Iron just doesn't catch the imagination.

Atahualpa, after being captured by Pizarro, bargained for his life by offering 100 cubic meters of gold and silver (the city plaza full). Such massive amounts of metals were not delivered in crude ingots but finely worked figures, jewelry and ornaments. All this testifies to advanced metallurgy in smelting, refining and working with these metals.

I'm still waiting for any of the apologists to brandish a pre-columbian steel sword.

[_Themis]

I made the statement about the Meso- and south American cultures not being interested in iron because no evidence has been found anywhere that iron was ever smelted. Iron is a boring metal compared to glittery gold, silver and copper. Hell, we still think the same way. Our medals for the olympics mirror these three metals.

I read your referenced article from Wikipedia. It refers to copper-bronze smelting which is only marginally less heat intensive than iron ore smelting (copper 1100°C, iron 1375°C). Given also that bog ores or precipatative iron ores are found throughout the northern Americas, iron ores would have probably been identified, but just lacked interest. Iron just doesn't catch the imagination.

Atahualpa, after being captured by Pizarro, bargained for his life by offering 100 cubic meters of gold and silver (the city plaza full). Such massive amounts of metals were not delivered in crude ingots but finely worked figures, jewelry and ornaments. All this testifies to advanced metallurgy in smelting, refining and working with these metals.

I'm still waiting for any of the apologists to brandish a pre-columbian steel sword.

Different areas ability to smelt metals came about at different times, and the ability to create high enough heat does as well. I agree that metals like gold are much nicer to look at, but can you show that they thought iron was boring. There are some things, even iron beads that tobin brought up that have been found. In the end, Book of Mormon times are just to early for both the technology of smelting high enough heat. I suppose if they understood what iron could do, they might have been able to figure out how to create better furnaces to make more use of them. The metals they did use, did not need as much heat, so maybe there was not enough interest in making better. I wonder if natives would have been interested in Iron and steel weapons and tools they may have seen when they arrived.