Bible verse by verse

[_subgenius]

is this the thread on brevity?
otherwise i am not sure what it is about

[_LittleNipper]

is this the thread on brevity?
otherwise i am not sure what it is about

I find that God has a way of saying things multiple times. I think He really wants the reader to think, and kind of add up the details in the story as God relates it. What I've tried to do was simply condense what many people have already read into something that cuts right to the chase and gives a Fundamental view of what the story that God is unfolding is actually about. My hope is that as we move along, everyone will see what a Fundamentalist understands as he reads through the Bible. Perhaps, this will give Mormons an opportunity to see that some Christians, at least didn't, make things up or pull things out of a hat. And perhpas they will review what they have been told concerning the Bible leaving the Mormonism out...

[_LittleNipper]

Hello little nipper or anyone else who would like to respond,

Sorry I'm a little late on this.

Genesis 37:1-36 One night Joseph has a dream, and when he tells his brothers about it, they hated him even more. Joseph says that in the dream they were out in the field, tying up bundles of grain. Suddenly his bundle stood up, and the brother's bundles all gathered around and bowed. They saw Joseph as high and mighty. And they hated him all the more because of his dream. Joseph had another dream, and again he told his brothers about it. In this dream the sun, moon, and eleven stars bowed low before him. This time he told the dream to his father as well as to his brothers, but his father scolded him.

The question I have is in regards to the 2nd dream. Jacob interprets the sun and moon as himself and Joseph's mother (who died giving birth to Benjamin). When in your opinion was this second dream fulfilled? As a believer in reincarnation, I believe that Joseph was a prior incarnation of Jesus so this prophecy will be fulfilled in the future.

You may wish to consider the following:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Q1jJsL ... am&f=false

There is much in the Bible which seems mathematical. I believe this demonstrates God's pattern or design. I found the above interesting. No, I do not hold to reincarnation and Joseph in the story is not perfect. He makes mistakes. the one being he told his brothers his dreams even when one would imagine that such revelations would stir up trouble. God gave Joseph the dream and should have kept them to himself. Joseph did mature, but still is not perfect. He even toys alittle with his brothers when they come seeking food in Egypt. Joseph is not Jesus.

[_LittleNipper]

Genesis 47:1-31 Joseph goes to see Pharaoh and tells him that his father brothers have arrived from Canaan. They have come with all their flocks and herds and possessions, and are now in Goshen.
Joseph presented 5 brothers to Pharaoh. Pharaoh asks the brothers their occupation... They replied, they are shepherds, always have been. They have come for a while because of the severity of the famine. They request grazing land for their flocks in the region of Goshen. Pharaoh tells Joseph, to choose any place for them to live, even in the region of Goshen. And the brothers may apply any special skills to Pharoah's own livestock, also. Joseph presents Jacob to Pharaoh, who proceeds to bless Pharaoh. Jacob relates that he has lived 130 hard years, though short compared to the lives of his ancestors.Jacob blessed Pharaoh again before leaving the court. Joseph gives the best land of Egypt—the region of Rameses—to his father and his brothers. Joseph provides food for his father and relatives. Meanwhile, the famine becomes so severe that all the food among the citizens and neigboring countries runs out. People are starving throughout the lands of Egypt and Canaan. By selling grain to the people, Joseph eventually collects all the money in Egypt and Canaan, and he put the money in Pharaoh’s treasury. When the people of Egypt and Canaan run out of money, all the Egyptians come to Joseph and beg for food. Joseph replies to them to use their livestock as collateral. Food will be exchanged for livestock. This they brought to Joseph in exchange for food: horses, flocks of sheep and goats, herds of cattle, and donkeys, Joseph provided them with food for another year. But that year ended and the citizens have nothing left but their bodies and their land for food... So Joseph bought all their land. All the Egyptians sold him their fields because the famine was so severe, and soon all the land belongs to Pharaoh. Joseph made all the citizen across Egypt slaves. Only land belonging to priests Joseph did not buy because they received an allotment of food directly from Pharaoh, so they didn’t need to sell their land. (Note: No separation of Church and State here!) Joseph says that today they have been bought and so has their lands for Pharaoh. Joseph will provide seed so they can plant the fields. When they harvested it, one-fifth of the crop belongs to Pharaoh. The remaining four-fifths as seed for the fields and as food for the various households, and the children. The people are happy to be alive. Joseph issues a decree (still in effect in the land of Egypt to the day of Moses) ---- that Pharaoh should receive one-fifth of all the crops grown on his land. Only the land belonging to the priests was not given to Pharaoh. Meanwhile, the people of Israel settled in the region of Goshen in Egypt. There they acquired property, and they were fruitful, and their population grew rapidly. Jacob lived for a total of 147 years. As Jacob get closer to death he asks that his remains are buried with his ancestors out of Egypt. Joseph promises to fulfill this last request of his father at Jacob's death bed.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And Joseph cometh, and declareth to Pharaoh, and saith, `My father, and my brethren, and their flock, and their herd, and all they have, have come from the land of Canaan, and lo, they [are] in the land of Goshen.'

2 And out of his brethren he hath taken five men, and setteth them before Pharaoh;

3 and Pharaoh saith unto his brethren, `What [are] your works?' and they say unto Pharaoh, `Thy servants [are] feeders of a flock, both we and our fathers;'

4 and they say unto Pharaoh, `To sojourn in the land we have come, for there is no pasture for the flock which thy servants have, for grievous [is] the famine in the land of Canaan; and now, let thy servants, we pray thee, dwell in the land of Goshen.'

5 And Pharaoh speaketh unto Joseph, saying, `Thy father and thy brethren have come unto thee:

6 the land of Egypt is before thee; in the best of the land cause thy father and thy brethren to dwell -- they dwell in the land of Goshen, and if thou hast known, and there are among them men of ability, then thou hast set them heads over the cattle I have.'

7 And Joseph bringeth in Jacob his father, and causeth him to stand before Pharaoh; and Jacob blesseth Pharaoh.

8 And Pharaoh saith unto Jacob, `How many [are] the days of the years of thy life?'

9 And Jacob saith unto Pharaoh, `The days of the years of my sojournings [are] an hundred and thirty years; few and evil have been the days of the years of my life, and they have not reached the days of the years of the life of my fathers, in the days of their sojournings.'

10 And Jacob blesseth Pharaoh, and goeth out from before Pharaoh.

11 And Joseph settleth his father and his brethren, and giveth to them a possession in the land of Egypt, in the best of the land, in the land of Rameses, as Pharaoh commanded;

12 and Joseph nourisheth his father, and his brethren, and all the house of his father [with] bread, according to the mouth of the infants.

13 And there is no bread in all the land, for the famine [is] very grievous, and the land of Egypt and the land of Canaan are feeble because of the famine;

14 and Joseph gathereth all the silver that is found in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, for the corn that they are buying, and Joseph bringeth the silver into the house of Pharaoh.

15 And the silver is consumed out of the land of Egypt, and out of the land of Canaan, and all the Egyptians come in unto Joseph, saying, `Give to us bread -- why do we die before thee, though the money hath ceased?'

16 and Joseph saith, `Give your cattle; and I give to you for your cattle, if the money hath ceased.'

17 And they bring in their cattle unto Joseph, and Joseph giveth to them bread, for the horses, and for the cattle of the flock, and for the cattle of the herd, and for the asses; and he tendeth them with bread, for all their cattle, during that year.

18 And that year is finished, and they come in unto him on the second year, and say to him, `We do not hide from my lord, that since the money hath been finished, and possession of the cattle [is] unto my lord, there hath not been left before my lord save our bodies, and our ground;

19 why do we die before thine eyes, both we and our ground? buy us and our ground for bread, and we and our ground are servants to Pharaoh; and give seed, and we live, and die not, and the ground is not desolate.'

20 And Joseph buyeth all the ground of Egypt for Pharaoh, for the Egyptians have sold each his field, for the famine hath been severe upon them, and the land becometh Pharaoh's;

21 as to the people he hath removed them to cities from the [one] end of the border of Egypt even unto its [other] end.

22 Only the ground of the priests he hath not bought, for the priests have a portion from Pharaoh, and they have eaten their portion which Pharaoh hath given to them, therefore they have not sold their ground.

23 And Joseph saith unto the people, `Lo, I have bought you to-day and your ground for Pharaoh; lo, seed for you, and ye have sown the ground,

24 and it hath come to pass in the increases, that ye have given a fifth to Pharaoh, and four of the parts are for yourselves, for seed of the field, and for your food, and for those who [are] in your houses, and for food for your infants.'

25 And they say, `Thou hast revived us; we find grace in the eyes of my lord, and have been servants to Pharaoh;'

26 and Joseph setteth it for a statute unto this day, concerning the ground of Egypt, [that] Pharaoh hath a fifth; only the ground of the priests alone hath not become Pharaoh's.

27 And Israel dwelleth in the land of Egypt, in the land of Goshen, and they have possession in it, and are fruitful, and multiply exceedingly;

28 and Jacob liveth in the land of Egypt seventeen years, and the days of Jacob, the years of his life, are an hundred and forty and seven years.

29 And the days of Israel are near to die, and he calleth for his son, for Joseph, and saith to him, `If, I pray thee, I have found grace in thine eyes, put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh, and thou hast done with me kindness and truth; bury me not, I pray thee, in Egypt,

30 and I have lain with my fathers, and thou hast borne me out of Egypt, and buried me in their burying-place.' And he saith, `I -- I do according to thy word;'

31 and he saith, `Swear to me;' and he sweareth to him, and Israel boweth himself on the head of the bed.

[_LittleNipper]

Genesis 48:1-22 Not long after this, word came to Joseph that his father is failing rapidly. So Joseph goes to his father, and takes his two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim. When Joseph arrived, Jacob sits up in his bed. Jacob tells Joseph that God Almighty appeared to him at Luz in Canaan and blessed him, saying the HE will make Jacob fruitful, and will multiply Jacob's descendants. and a multitude of nations. The land of Canaan has been given to Jacob/Israel as an everlasting possession. Jacob claims Joseph's sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, as his own, just as Reuben and Simeon are. Any children born to Joseph in the future will be Joseph's own, and they will inherit land within the territories of their brothers Ephraim and Manasseh. Jacob remembers Rachel's died long ago in the land of Canaan. They were still on the way, some distance from Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem). So with great sorrow Jacob buried her there beside the road to Ephrath. Jacob was half blind because of his age and could hardly see. Joseph brings the boys close to him, and Jacob kisses and embraces them. Jacob says to Joseph that he never thought he would see Joseph again, but now God has let him see Joseph's children, also. Joseph moves the boys, who were at their grandfather’s knees, and he bowes with his face to the ground. The boys are moved in front of Jacob. Joseph uses his right hand to direct Ephraim toward Jacob’s left hand, and with his left hand he put Manasseh at Jacob’s right hand. However, Jacob crosses his arms as he reaches out to lay his hands on the boys’ heads. He put his right hand on the head of Ephraim, the younger, and his left hand on the head of Manasseh, though the firstborn. Then he blesses Joseph and says,

“May the God before whom my grandfather Abraham
and my father, Isaac, walked—
the God who has been my shepherd
all my life, to this very day,
the Messenger who has redeemed me from all harm—
may he bless these boys.
May they preserve my name
and the names of Abraham and Isaac.
And may their descendants multiply greatly
throughout the earth.”

Joseph is upset when he sees that his father placed his right hand on Ephraim’s head. So Joseph lifted it to move it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head, the firstborn. But his father refused knowing that Manasseh will also become a great people, but the younger brother will become even greater. And his descendants will become a multitude of nations. So Jacob blesses the boys that day with this blessing: The people of Israel will use the name of these two sons in their blessings saying, ‘May God make you as prosperous as Ephraim and Manasseh.’ Then Jacob tells Joseph that he is about to die, but God will take him back to Canaan, the land of their ancestors.Jacob gives Joseph giving an extra portion of the land tooken from the Amorites with sword and bow.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And it cometh to pass, after these things, that [one] saith to Joseph, `Lo, thy father is sick;' and he taketh his two sons with him, Manasseh and Ephraim.

2 And [one] declareth to Jacob, and saith, `Lo, thy son Joseph is coming unto thee;' and Israel doth strengthen himself, and sit upon the bed.

3 And Jacob saith unto Joseph, `God Almighty hath appeared unto me, in Luz, in the land of Canaan, and blesseth me,

4 and saith unto me, Lo, I am making thee fruitful, and have multiplied thee, and given thee for an assembly of peoples, and given this land to thy seed after thee, a possession age-during.

5 `And now, thy two sons, who are born to thee in the land of Egypt, before my coming unto thee to Egypt, mine they [are]; Ephraim and Manasseh, as Reuben and Simeon they are mine;

6 and thy family which thou hast begotten after them are thine; by the name of their brethren they are called in their inheritance.

7 `And I -- in my coming in from Padan-[Aram] Rachel hath died by me in the land of Canaan, in the way, while yet a kibrath of land to enter Ephrata, and I bury her there in the way of Ephrata, which [is] Bethlehem.'

8 And Israel seeth the sons of Joseph, and saith, `Who [are] these?'

9 and Joseph saith unto his father, `They [are] my sons, whom God hath given to me in this [place];' and he saith, `Bring them, I pray thee, unto me, and I bless them.'

10 And the eyes of Israel have been heavy from age, he is unable to see; and he bringeth them nigh unto him, and he kisseth them, and cleaveth to them;

11 and Israel saith unto Joseph, `To see thy face I had not thought, and lo, God hath shewed me also thy seed.'

12 And Joseph bringeth them out from between his knees, and boweth himself on his face to the earth;

13 and Joseph taketh them both, Ephraim in his right hand towards Israel's left, and Manasseh in his left towards Israel's right, and bringeth [them] nigh to him.

14 And Israel putteth out his right hand, and placeth [it] upon the head of Ephraim, who [is] the younger, and his left hand upon the head of Manasseh; he hath guided his hands wisely, for Manasseh [is] the first-born.

15 And he blesseth Joseph, and saith, `God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked habitually: God who is feeding me from my being unto this day:

16 the Messenger who is redeeming me from all evil doth bless the youths, and my name is called upon them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and they increase into a multitude in the midst of the land.'

17 And Joseph seeth that his father setteth his right hand on the head of Ephraim, and it is wrong in his eyes, and he supporteth the hand of his father to turn it aside from off the head of Ephraim to the head of Manasseh;

18 and Joseph saith unto his father, `Not so, my father, for this [is] the first-born; set thy right hand on his head.'

19 And his father refuseth, and saith, `I have known, my son, I have known; he also becometh a people, and he also is great, and yet, his young brother is greater than he, and his seed is the fulness of the nations;'

20 and he blesseth them in that day, saying, `By thee doth Israel bless, saying, God set thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh;' and he setteth Ephraim before Manasseh.

21 And Israel saith unto Joseph, `Lo, I am dying, and God hath been with you, and hath brought you back unto the land of your fathers;

22 and I -- I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I have taken out of the hand of the Amorite by my sword and by my bow.'

[_sleepyhead]

There is much in the Bible which seems mathematical. I believe this demonstrates God's pattern or design. I found the above interesting. No, I do not hold to reincarnation and Joseph in the story is not perfect. He makes mistakes. the one being he told his brothers his dreams even when one would imagine that such revelations would stir up trouble. God gave Joseph the dream and should have kept them to himself. Joseph did mature, but still is not perfect. He even toys alittle with his brothers when they come seeking food in Egypt. Joseph is not Jesus.

Hello littlenipper,

You have a predefined belief that Jesus was perfect, therefore, the possibility that Jesus could have lived as Joseph is false. To support your viewpoint you have found an apologist who has presented a sufficiently complex response to the verse, such that others will prefer to go along with his interpretation rather than check on his mathematical gymnastics. I might add here that immediately following Joseph relaying the dream to his father, Jacob interpreted the dream for us saying that he and Joseph's mother would bow down to him.

You>>>And perhpas they will review what they have been told concerning the Bible leaving the Mormonism out...<<<

Are you willing to review what you were told about the Bible leaving fundamentalism out?

[Guest]

There is much in the Bible which seems mathematical. I believe this demonstrates God's pattern or design. I found the above interesting. No, I do not hold to reincarnation and Joseph in the story is not perfect. He makes mistakes. the one being he told his brothers his dreams even when one would imagine that such revelations would stir up trouble. God gave Joseph the dream and should have kept them to himself. Joseph did mature, but still is not perfect. He even toys alittle with his brothers when they come seeking food in Egypt. Joseph is not Jesus.

Hello littlenipper,

You have a predefined belief that Jesus was perfect, therefore, the possibility that Jesus could have lived as Joseph is false. To support your viewpoint you have found an apologist who has presented a sufficiently complex response to the verse, such that others will prefer to go along with his interpretation rather than check on his mathematical gymnastics. I might add here that immediately following Joseph relaying the dream to his father, Jacob interpreted the dream for us saying that he and Joseph's mother would bow down to him.

You>>>And perhpas they will review what they have been told concerning the Bible leaving the Mormonism out...<<<

Are you willing to review what you were told about the Bible leaving fundamentalism out?

God is perfect. Jesus is God; therefore Jesus is perfect. Fundamentalism is accepting the Bible as inerrant and literal. It is literal except where "like," "as," etc., are used... Mormonism is the opposite in many ways.

[_sleepyhead]

Are you willing to review what you were told about the Bible leaving fundamentalism out?

God is perfect. Jesus is God; therefore Jesus is perfect. Fundamentalism is accepting the Bible as inerrant and literal except where "like," "as," etc., are used... Mormonism is the opposite in many ways.[/quote]

In your opinion which is better. To believe that some parts of the Bible could be wrong where by an individual can read what it says and disagree. This position does not require that the individual distort any part of the Bible. Then there are those who believe it's inerrant. They need to take liberties at interpretation in order for it to conform to there beliefs

[_LittleNipper]

Are you willing to review what you were told about the Bible leaving fundamentalism out?

God is perfect. Jesus is God; therefore Jesus is perfect. Fundamentalism is accepting the Bible as inerrant and literal except where "like," "as," etc., are used... Mormonism is the opposite in many ways.

In your opinion which is better. To believe that some parts of the Bible could be wrong where by an individual can read what it says and disagree. This position does not require that the individual distort any part of the Bible. Then there are those who believe it's inerrant. They need to take liberties at interpretation in order for it to conform to there beliefs[/quote]
I do not try to take liberties. I can see that there are different ways to see some things; however, it must come down to one simple understanding --- is the Bible inspired by God or the work of intelligent men? I fully believe the Bible is designed by God. God is perfect and what He does is perfect. And God has the power to keep it perfect. Interpretations by man can be in error. But if one is in prayer and allows the Scripture to fully define itself, then one is far less likely to do it an injustice.

[_Bond James Bond]

http://www.thebible.com/

I won.