The Bottom Line

[_jo1952]

I just had to say I find that attitude infinitely more reasonable than insisting, despite overwhelming contrary evidence, that there was a literal, global flood! Congratulations for that!

Thank you, Gunnar!

I also greatly admire you for this comment:

Christians do not have exclusivity to what Christ accomplished. Also, contrary to what misguided members of the LDS Church believe, the LDS Christians do not have exclusivity to what Christ accomplished.

Again, thank you - though I'm sure there are too many who would disagree.

As we agreed on another thread, the truly important consideration is how we treat each other and succeed in making the world a little bit better place than it might have been had we never existed.

Boy, a BIG AMEN to that!!!

Blessings!

jo

[_Gunnar]

Franktalk, while it is wise to beware of the teachings of men, it is also true that it is very far from established beyond all reasonable doubt that there are any teachings available to us that are not of men. I'm sure that even you acknowledge that, at most, a very tiny minority of the mutually contradictory teachings claimed to be of God are not, in actuality the teachings of fallible, often dishonest men. I still maintain that no precept or teaching is more deservedly suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by an appeal to divine authority--no matter who or what claims such authority!

[_LittleNipper]

All Jews apparently were not saved or the rich "Jew" would have never have ended up asking Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water because he was so hot and dry. Now, there is a truth Jesus Christ did reveal and this is as I accept it. The only pre-crucifixion/resurrection Jews who went to the holding place Paradise, were those who believed God would save them and that it had nothing to do with their sacrafices and ability to keep the LAW. The sacrafices only represented what the Messiah would come to accomplish for real and forever HIMSELF. The sacrafices acted as an illustration of Christ.

Hello LittleNipper!

All Jews WILL be saved. Those who are not waiting in Paradise for their resurrection are spending "time" in spirit prison until they have paid the last farthing.

Christians do not have exclusivity to what Christ accomplished. Also, contrary to what misguided members of the LDS Church believe, the LDS Christians do not have exclusivity to what Christ accomplished.

Blessings,

jo

There is no time long enough to pay one's own debt. There is an unpardonable sin. That is the rejection of the Holy Spirit's leading to repentance and the Savior. Good works may be a sign of one's salvation but it is not the way one is saved. That is called putting the cart before the horse. There are no self made men in heaven only the righteously forgiven.

[_subgenius]

I still maintain that no precept or teaching is more deservedly suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by an appeal to divine authority--no matter who or what claims such authority!

Yours is an unreasonable position. The appeal to Divine authority is infallible. To claim that validation only occurs upon some sort of temporal exercise is backwards. The appeal is the end-game. Any LDS will tell you that the counsel is to study it out in your mind first...then appeal to Divinity. The studying out in the mind is not what validates the cause, it is the appeal, and only the appeal. any confirmation that comes from the Divine will have a Divine purpose.
- consider the following:
"Many are called, but few are chosen". (Matthew 22:1-14)
this proverb is a testimony of how infallible the Divine inspiration is, and how fallible the temporal application is. What you are suggesting contradicts the fundamental nature of faith and denies an understanding of what is being taught and being learned. During the April 2012 General Conference, Elder Cook gave the following : "The essential doctrine of agency requires that a testimony of the restored gospel be based on faith rather than just external or scientific proof."
Now, this is in no way a call for "blind" faith - for the LDS have countless counsels against such a thing. But do not kid yourself, it is by Faith, by Divine confirmation, that our knowledge is attained (see also all of Hebrews chapter 11). I think you may be near the right idea but your emphasis is way off the mark.

"Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—" (D&C 121:34-35)

If you desire "confirmation" of this from beyond the Divine then surely you will always be disappointed. The true bottom line is that only through Divine appeal can anything ever be truly supported and confirmed, otherwise it is without faith, without hope, and without cause.

[_Franktalk]

Franktalk, while it is wise to beware of the teachings of men, it is also true that it is very far from established beyond all reasonable doubt that there are any teachings available to us that are not of men. I'm sure that even you acknowledge that, at most, a very tiny minority of the mutually contradictory teachings claimed to be of God are not, in actuality the teachings of fallible, often dishonest men. I still maintain that no precept or teaching is more deservedly suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by an appeal to divine authority--no matter who or what claims such authority!

The world is filled with false prophets and false teachers. The question is how do we pursue truth in this environment and just what is truth? How do we know truth when it comes our way? In my world view I know that truth comes from God. The thing which many call truth is in actuality relationships between the parts in this creation. I believe and many scientist believe that this universe could have been organized in many different ways. That being the case then the relationship between the parts is just part of this particular design and is not truth. If you hold the stuff around you as your foundation then it becomes in essence your god. You form your world view based on the material world. In this limited view things seem to make logical sense because God is a good designer. It is a stumbling block for us. A trap in a sense that we can avoid or fall into. It is but one of many tests and trials that we must conquer before we can move along. It is my belief that we do move along and there is much more than this physical universe. But for those who start this path towards a spiritual understanding it is a bumpy road filled with false doctrine and false teachers. One must wade through this sea of opinions and seek the Kingdom beyond. Even much of what is in scripture is there for us to stumble on. If we don't prioritize we end up swimming in a sea of commandments and doctrines tossed about like a boat in a storm. But it can be done and many have made contact with God. The road to God is much harder than the road to worldly knowledge.

[_Themis]

I also mentioned to Themis that if the global flood has only allegorical meaning, it is not going to change my relationship with God. I have no doubts that there are many things I don't have right about the physical world.

I just had to say I find that attitude infinitely more reasonable than insisting, despite overwhelming contrary evidence, that there was a literal, global flood! Congratulations for that!

I don't recall that post, but many LDS still believe in God and view the flood allegorical.

[_Gunnar]

The appeal to Divine authority is infallible.

In the light of the observation stated in my OP, this is so obviously untrue, that it absolutely amazes me that any rational and fully cognizant person can actually believe that! By far the most unreliable approach to gaining and discerning truth is faith based appeal to divine authority that is not backed up by tangible evidence--especially if the faith is flatly contradicted by the best available evidence. I reemphasize again that the thousands of mutually contradictory religious belief systems whose adherents sincerely claim they are based on an appeal to Divine authority is incontrovertible proof of that! You remind me of an acquaintance I once knew who told me that he believes that 2 + 2 = 4 only because the Holy Ghost confirmed that to him in answer to prayer.

[_Tobin]

The appeal to Divine authority is infallible.

In the light of the observation stated in my OP, this is so obviously untrue, that it absolutely amazes me that any rational and fully cognizant person can actually believe that! By far the most unreliable approach to gaining and discerning truth is faith based appeal to divine authority that is not backed up by tangible evidence--especially if the faith is flatly contradicted by the best available evidence. I reemphasize again that the thousands of mutually contradictory religious belief systems whose adherents sincerely claim they are based on an appeal to Divine authority is incontrovertible proof of that! You remind me of an acquaintance I once knew who told me that he believes that 2 + 2 = 4 only because the Holy Ghost confirmed that to him in answer to prayer.

You clearly have ignored what sub, I and others have REPEATEDLY told you. Talk to God yourself or as sub stated, "The appeal to Divine authority is infallible.". You keep falling back to the EXCUSE that because people (who are fallible) have differing views of God, that God is unable to answer YOU and provide YOU guidance. That is patently absurd. Go do it yourself and stop saying the same stupid stuff and using the same broken thinking as a REASON to not do what you should.

[_Sethbag]

Tobin, if I were to go kneel down and pray to God, even if I perceived some kind of influence or message in my mind, there would be no good reason for me to interpret this as the communication to me of truth from some Divine power who could be trusted to know such truth.

Why do I say this? Because I know that I am probably unremarkable as a person in this world. Looking around the world, it is fairly obvious that this method doesn't work for millions of other people who rely on it for truth, and I can think of no good reason why the method would be anymore reliable for me than it is for them. Apparently it is very easy, as a human being, to become convinced that one has received revelation from God, but be wrong about it.

[_Franktalk]

May I write a conversation that depicts the gist of this thread.

Man1 - The trek I have been on was difficult but now that I am here I see the grass is so much greener.
Man2 - There is no grass.
Man1 - But I am standing on the grass and running my hand through the blades.
Man2 - No grass, no blades.
Man1 - I could not see the grass either before I made the trek. But it is real.
Man2 - No, it is a lie.
Man1 - Just come with me and see for yourself.
Man2 - No, why waste my time, no grass.
Man1 - But can't you see that I have become a new person because of the grass?
Man2 - No grass, you are a fool who is fooling himself, no grass.
Man1 - But what of the billions who have made this journey?
Man2 - No grass, all fools.