If that is what Peterson is arguing, then perhaps God also inspired Pitkin -- and further inspired Smith to use Pitkin's words.
I think you've just hit on the new and improved, catch-all LDS apologetic, Dale. This has huge potential. God inspired King James' men and then inspired Smith to copy those already inspired words (except that they must not have quite gotten it right), no doubt he inspired Ethan Smith, Josiah Priest, Clavigero, the Maccabees, Alexander Campbell, Mercy Otis Warren, George Washington--which explains how the whole thing was produced by the gift and power of God, regardless of where it was originally written--anyone, of course, except for the hopelessly uninspired atheist, Solomon Spalding.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."
- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
There is a reson you cannot get even critical scholars such as Dan Vogel to agree with you on this one.
Well then, I don't think I've ever heard your opinion on the KJVB question. Do you think a KJVB was used to produce certain portions of the Book of Mormon?
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."
- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
Roger wrote:I think you've just hit on the new and improved, catch-all LDS apologetic, Dale. This has huge potential. God inspired King James' men and then inspired Smith to copy those already inspired words (except that they must not have quite gotten it right), no doubt he inspired Ethan Smith, Josiah Priest, Clavigero, the Maccabees, Alexander Campbell, Mercy Otis Warren, George Washington--which explains how the whole thing was produced by the gift and power of God, regardless of where it was originally written--anyone, of course, except for the hopelessly uninspired atheist, Solomon Spalding.
Not anyone but, it none of the above including retired preacher, Solomon Spalding.
Of course you must have missed the part where Solomon's manuscript was sent packing again back to the widow this time. And in the same interview, Sidney Rigdon had been nor was nowhere about.
Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
There is a reson you cannot get even critical scholars such as Dan Vogel to agree with you on this one.
Well then, I don't think I've ever heard your opinion on the KJVB question. Do you think a KJVB was used to produce certain portions of the Book of Mormon?
There certainly was not one mentioned by any of the witnesses. That has been an ongoing topic for some time, years even. There are some parts of the Isaiah quotations that are verbatim from the Bible, and there are some parts that have some alterations not in the Bible. Maybe you should check out an article about Isaiah Variants in the Book of Mormon on the Maxwell Institue site. It is those variants that are problematic for a KJB source.
Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
Have you mapped out "it is expedient"? That phrase is all over that page.
I have 363 pages for my electronic copy. It occurs 62 times throughout. Expectation is .17. Reality is .11 in the books before Jarom. I don't know if this is significant or not. I'm busy doing other things right now.
I am wondering if that particular phrase shows up mostly in other pages/chapters Jocker's attributes to Cowdery or if it shows up in pages attributed to the others?
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."
- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
There certainly was not one mentioned by any of the witnesses. That has been an ongoing topic for some time, years even. There are some parts of the Isaiah quotations that are verbatim from the Bible, and there are some parts that have some alterations not in the Bible. Maybe you should check out an article about Isaiah Variants in the Book of Mormon on the Maxwell Institue site. It is those variants that are problematic for a KJB source.
Not sure whether I've read that specific article, but I read a very thorough essay by David Wright in American Apocrypha on that specific subject, which is why I brought up the topic on this thread, knowing that Dan Vogel was also a contributor to that book.
I fully agree with David Wright's conclusions in that article--except that he too easily attributes the variants to Joseph Smith. I think Sidney Rigdon was more suited to that task.
But I was asking your opinion. What is your conclusion? Dr. Peterson thinks a Bible was likely not used in Book of Mormon production, although he leaves himself an escape hatch. Do you agree?
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."
- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
Not anyone but, it none of the above including retired preacher, Solomon Spalding.
Of course you must have missed the part where Solomon's manuscript was sent packing again back to the widow this time. And in the same interview, Sidney Rigdon had been nor was nowhere about.
Rigdon had more than one opportunity to purloin and copy a manuscript, Glenn. There was a lot of time between 1816 and 1823. Cowdery and Smith produced 6-8 pages per day, so it wouldn't have taken Rigdon an inordinate amount of time to copy Spalding's manuscript which was described as about 1/3 the size of the Book of Mormon. Rigdon's itinerary is not fully accounted for during those years, but the fact is he was in the vicinity of Pittsburgh much of the time.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."
- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
I am wondering if that particular phrase shows up mostly in other pages/chapters Jocker's attributes to Cowdery or if it shows up in pages attributed to the others?
Word and phrase mapping is tedious, but doesn't require any special expertise. Anyone who can read and has a puter can do it, if they really wanted to.
Huckelberry said: I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.
It's also possible that the Whitmers never noticed manifestations of Joseph's reported extraordinary memory. Clayton later said that Joseph could recall the entire text of D&C 132 from his own mind -- quite a feat, and one that explains William Law's claim that the Mormon leader possessed something like a photographic memory. A friend of Joseph's father recalled that the elder Smith could recite the contents of an entire book, after one reading. Martin Harris demonstrated a notable retention of lengthy biblical texts. Memory can be a helpful tool to the con-man who wishes to favorably impress his gullible audience.
I think there must be something to that. I think the method Arad Stowell ambiguously describes in his 1826 testimony fits that scenario. But how do we apply that to KJVB "reliance" as Ben would call it? I highly doubt that Smith memorized Isaiah but made the italics based changes on the fly.
And yet if we allow for Smith to have a photographic memory and that he used it in Book of Mormon production, this whole thing becomes even more wonder-tale-ish. It's like all the planets aligned perfectly to allow the pulling off of a seemingly unparalleled con. Spalding writes a useful but unpublished history and then has the courtesy to die. Rigdon, suffering from delusions, stumbles upon it and decides he can add to it. Rigdon then fortuitously makes contact with a boy-wonder-seer with a photographic memory who can also con the wealthy but gullible into mortgaging a farm to cover expenses. I'm sure stranger things have happened... maybe.
Oddly enough, I have to agree with Dan Vogel, that the lesser miracle is certainly easier to believe.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."
- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.