God desperately craves to save those that are lost from eternal separation. Those that choose to not believe are allowed to do so and accept the consequences for their actions.
Sorry, LittleNipper. There is no way that I am ever going to accept the idiotic premise that God would punish anyone for all eternity merely for having honest doubts about his existence, or even merely about which of the many mutually contradictory concepts of God is the right one.
Sorry, but God never punished anyone for having doubts. What separates man from God is the rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ. God never says anywhere, "Have no doubts and be save." What God says is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saves." God will furnish the faith and build it. But the individual must at some point acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord and that one's own "goodness" counts as nothing without Christ.
What I do find as funny is that people seem to doubt GOD and the Bible and Jesus, but when it come to "scientific theories" many suddenly think in terms of absolute and factual....
Psalm 30:1-12 A song for the dedication of David's house.
I praise you, Lord, because you saved me and kept my enemies from gloating.
I cried out to you for help, O Lord my God, and you brought healing; you kept me from dying.
I was on my way to the tomb but you restored my life.
Praise the Lord, His faithful people!
Remember what the Holy One did, and thank Him!
His anger lasts only momentarily, his goodness --- a lifetime.
Tears may flow at night, but joy comes with daybreak.
Securely I said to myself, “I will never be defeated.”
You were good to me, Lord; you protected me like a mountain fort.
But then you withdrew from me, and this scared me.
I cried out to you, Lord; I begged for your help:
“What will you gain from my death? What profit from my going to the grave? Can dead people praise you and proclaim your unending goodness?
Hear me, Lord, be merciful and assist me!”
You have changed my sadness into a jolly jig; you have taken away my sorrow and encircled me in joy.
So I will not be quiet; I will sing praise to you. Lord, you are my God; I will always give you thanks.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 A Psalm. -- A song of the dedication of the house of David. I exalt Thee, O Jehovah, For Thou hast drawn me up, and hast not let mine enemies rejoice over me.
2 Jehovah my God, I have cried to Thee, And Thou dost heal me.
3 Jehovah, Thou hast brought up from Sheol my soul, Thou hast kept me alive, From going down [to] the pit.
4 Sing praise to Jehovah, ye His saints, And give thanks at the remembrance of His holiness,
5 For -- a moment [is] in His anger, Life [is] in His good-will, At even remaineth weeping, and at morn singing.
6 And I -- I have said in mine ease, `I am not moved -- to the age.
7 O Jehovah, in Thy good pleasure, Thou hast caused strength to remain for my mountain,' Thou hast hidden Thy face -- I have been troubled.
8 Unto Thee, O Jehovah, I call, And unto Jehovah I make supplication.
9 `What gain [is] in my blood? In my going down unto corruption? Doth dust thank Thee? doth it declare Thy truth?
10 Hear, O Jehovah, and favour me, O Jehovah, be a helper to me.'
11 Thou hast turned my mourning to dancing for me, Thou hast loosed my sackcloth, And girdest me [with] joy.
12 So that honour doth praise Thee, and is not silent, O Jehovah, my God, to the age I thank Thee!
huckelberry wrote:Gunnar, there is a possibility that God seeking to impress us with the beauty of creation is not just selfishly greasing his own need but instead is a desire to open our minds to a world beyond our selfish desire . If we look through that window we might see the beauty which is potential in our relationships with others.
I don't think for a minute that seeking to impress us (part of his own creation) with the beauty of creation would have had anything to do with why a God would have created the universe the way he did, and I certainly don't believe that the universe was created just for the benefit of us homo sapiens.
Besides that, if there is a God who created us and the entire universe, it is totally asinine to believe (as LittleNipper does) that in all the incredible vastness of the observable universe we humans on this tiny speck of matter we call Earth would necessarily be the only sentient, mortal beings in existence. What an outrageous waste of real estate! If it really is true that our planet is the only abode of life in all creation, that would be overwhelmingly convincing justification for concluding that the emergence of life was merely an incredibly rare accidental occurrence having nothing whatsoever to do with deliberate, intelligent design. We have excellent justification and evidence for concluding that the same elements and laws of physics and chemistry we have observed here on earth prevail throughout the entire observable Universe. There is no reason whatsoever to conclude that God, if such an entity exists, would have created life only once and only here. Even the Bible (as far as I can tell) does not support that ridiculous notion! If it did, that alone would be excellent justification for rejecting it!
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
huckelberry wrote:Gunnar, there is a possibility that God seeking to impress us with the beauty of creation is not just selfishly greasing his own need but instead is a desire to open our minds to a world beyond our selfish desire . If we look through that window we might see the beauty which is potential in our relationships with others.
I don't think for a minute that seeking to impress us (part of his own creation) with the beauty of creation would have had anything to do with why a God would have created the universe the way he did, and I certainly don't believe that the universe was created just for the benefit of us homo sapiens.
Besides that, if there is a God who created us and the entire universe, it is totally asinine to believe (as LittleNipper does) that in all the incredible vastness of the observable universe we humans on this tiny speck of matter we call Earth would necessarily be the only sentient, mortal beings in existence. What an outrageous waste of real estate! If it really is true that our planet is the only abode of life in all creation, that would be overwhelmingly convincing justification for concluding that the emergence of life was merely an incredibly rare accidental occurrence having nothing whatsoever to do with deliberate, intelligent design. We have excellent justification and evidence for concluding that the same elements and laws of physics and chemistry we have observed here on earth prevail throughout the entire observable Universe. There is no reason whatsoever to conclude that God, if such an entity exists, would have created life only once and only here. Even the Bible (as far as I can tell) does not support that ridiculous notion! If it did, that alone would be excellent justification for rejecting it!
Well, you hit it on the head. You don't believe in God. You don't believe His Word. God isn't about quantity of living matter------ but the quality of the soul. And the fact is that space and eternity mean nothing to a being who can create whatever He wishes, wherever He wishes, and has all time that will ever exist at His command. If life existed on other planets, I believe that it would be God that would have put it there. But I must admit, if it were proven tomorrow that we were the only planet in the entire universe with any life on it, atheists would be very hard pressed to believe that life on this singular rock at the edge of the Milky Way was anything but a miracle --- no matter what you might suggest otherwise. This would simply be another nail in the coffin of the unbeliever.
huckelberry wrote:Gunnar, there is a possibility that God seeking to impress us with the beauty of creation is not just selfishly greasing his own need but instead is a desire to open our minds to a world beyond our selfish desire . If we look through that window we might see the beauty which is potential in our relationships with others.
I don't think for a minute that seeking to impress us (part of his own creation) with the beauty of creation would have had anything to do with why a God would have created the universe the way he did, and I certainly don't believe that the universe was created just for the benefit of us homo sapiens.
Besides that, if there is a God who created us and the entire universe, it is totally asinine to believe (as LittleNipper does) that in all the incredible vastness of the observable universe we humans on this tiny speck of matter we call Earth would necessarily be the only sentient, mortal beings in existence. What an outrageous waste of real estate! If it really is true that our planet is the only abode of life in all creation, that would be overwhelmingly convincing justification for concluding that the emergence of life was merely an incredibly rare accidental occurrence having nothing whatsoever to do with deliberate, intelligent design. We have excellent justification and evidence for concluding that the same elements and laws of physics and chemistry we have observed here on earth prevail throughout the entire observable Universe. There is no reason whatsoever to conclude that God, if such an entity exists, would have created life only once and only here. Even the Bible (as far as I can tell) does not support that ridiculous notion! If it did, that alone would be excellent justification for rejecting it!
sorry,say what?
I have no idea why you are going on about this. I have no inclination to think the sole purpose of the universe is the human race. If I speak of a purpose in relation to us that does not prevent there being other purposes for other things, even other purposes for humans. It could even be beyond purposes.
The thing is, LittleNipper, if God created life on this world, there is absolutely no reason that he would have done it only here and nowhere else that makes even the slightest bit of sense.
I don't claim to know with certainty that there can be no such thing as God or gods, but I absolutely reject the idea of a God that would have created this incredibly vast universe and created life only once in only one infinitesimally tiny portion of it when all the resources to create and sustain life also exist completely untapped in mind blogging abundance in the entire rest of the universe he created. This is why I am convinced that if it were true that life exists nowhere else but here, it can not have been a result of deliberate creation by some intelligent entity that also created the entire, incredibly vast, observable universe.
But then, on the other hand, maybe God decided that creating life was a horrible mistake that he did not want to repeat, or maybe he lost the recipe.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
I have no idea why you are going on about this. I have no inclination to think the sole purpose of the universe is the human race. If I speak of a purpose in relation to us that does not prevent there being other purposes for other things, even other purposes for humans. It could even be beyond purposes.
Huckelberry, I know that you don't think that. You are one of the most level headed and admirable theists who contribute to this forum, but apparently LittleNipper thinks that way. You obviously don't subscribe to the notion that life and, in particular, sentient life is necessarily exclusive to our world alone. But still, to the extent this universe is beautiful and awe inspiring, it is not so in order to impress mankind with God's magnificence and power--even if God really does exist. I can't believe that would be even the tiniest part of God's motivation for creating either the Universe or us.
And I still don't believe God would punish anyone merely for not believing in him. If he were truly concerned about whether or not we believed in him, he would have provided much less ambiguous evidence of his existence and his true nature and relationship to mankind.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Psalm 31:1-24 For the Music Director. A song of David.
In You, Lord, I take refuge; let me never be shamed; deliver me with Your righteousness.
Hear me, come to my rescue fast; be my place of safety, a strong fort protecting me.
Being this, for Your name sake lead and guide me.
Keep me out of traps set for me --- being my refuge.
Into Your hands I commend my spirit; deliver me, Lord, my faithful God.
I hate those who engage in idol worship; I trust in the Lord.
I will be happy and praise your love, You saw my affliction and knew the anguish of my soul.
You have not handed me over to the enemy but have given me footing out in the open.
Have mercy on me, Lord, for I am in anguish; my eyes are blurred with tears, my soul and body grieve.
My life is continually upset and my years with moans. I am powerless because of my affliction --- my bones fail to support me.
Because of all my enemies, I am held in contempt by those around and an object of dread to my closest friends— those who see me coming run from me.
I am ignored as though I were dead; I have become like trash.
I hear many whispering, “Terror all around!” They conspire against me and plot to kill me.
But I trust in You, Lord and say, “You are my God.”
My existence is under Your control; deliver me from my enemies who chase me.
Let Your face shine on me; save me in Your ever present love.
Let me not be shamed, Lord, for I have called to you; but let the wicked be shamed and remain quiet until death.
Let lying lips be silenced, for with pride and contempt they speak in arrogance against all the righteous.
Abundant are the good things that You have stored away for those who respect You. These You bestow openly on those who take refuge in You.
In the shelter of your presence you hide them from all human involvement; You keep them safe with You from accusing tongues.
Praise be the Lord, for he showed me His wondrous love when I was in a city being attacked.
In fright I said, “Why have You turned away?” Yet You heard my plea for mercy when I called for Your assistance.
Love the Lord, those being faithful! The Lord preserves those true to him, but the proud He completely pays back .
Be strong and take heart, all hopeful in the Lord.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 To the Overseer. -- A Psalm of David. In Thee, O Jehovah, I have trusted, Let me not be ashamed to the age, In Thy righteousness deliver me.
2 Incline unto me Thine ear hastily, deliver me, Be to me for a strong rock, For a house of bulwarks to save me.
3 For my rock and my bulwark [art] Thou, For Thy name's sake lead me and tend me.
4 Bring me out from the net that they hid for me, For Thou [art] my strength.
5 Into Thy hand I commit my spirit, Thou hast redeemed me, Jehovah God of truth.
6 I have hated the observers of lying vanities, And I toward Jehovah have been confident.
7 I rejoice, and am glad in Thy kindness, In that Thou hast seen mine affliction, Thou hast known in adversities my soul.
8 And Thou hast not shut me up, Into the hand of an enemy, Thou hast caused my feet to stand in a broad place.
9 Favour me, O Jehovah, for distress [is] to me, Mine eye, my soul, and my body Have become old by provocation.
10 For my life hath been consumed in sorrow And my years in sighing. Feeble because of mine iniquity hath been my strength, And my bones have become old.
11 Among all mine adversaries I have been a reproach, And to my neighbours exceedingly, And a fear to mine acquaintances, Those seeing me without -- fled from me.
12 I have been forgotten as dead out of mind, I have been as a perishing vessel.
13 For I have heard an evil account of many, Fear [is] round about. In their being united against me, To take my life they have devised,
14 And I on Thee -- I have trusted, O Jehovah, I have said, `Thou [art] my God.'
15 In Thy hand [are] my times, Deliver me from the hand of my enemies, And from my pursuers.
16 Cause Thy face to shine on Thy servant, Save me in Thy kindness.
17 O Jehovah, let me not be ashamed, For I have called Thee, let the wicked be ashamed, Let them become silent to Sheol.
18 Let lips of falsehood become dumb, That are speaking against the righteous, Ancient sayings, in pride and contempt.
19 How abundant is Thy goodness, That Thou hast laid up for those fearing Thee,
20 Thou hast wrought for those trusting in Thee, Before sons of men. Thou hidest them in the secret place of Thy presence, From artifices of man, Thou concealest them in a tabernacle, From the strife of tongues.
21 Blessed [is] Jehovah, For He hath made marvellous His kindness To me in a city of bulwarks.
22 And I -- I have said in my haste, `I have been cut off from before Thine eyes,' But Thou hast heard the voice of my supplications, In my crying unto Thee.
23 Love Jehovah, all ye His saints, Jehovah is keeping the faithful, And recompensing abundantly a proud doer.
24 Be strong, and He strengtheneth your heart, All ye who are waiting for Jehovah!
LittleNipper wrote:God isn't about quantity of living matter------ but the quality of the soul. And the fact is that space and eternity mean nothing to a being who can create whatever He wishes, wherever He wishes, and has all time that will ever exist at His command.
This sounds more like an entity a science fiction novel than the Biblical Yahweh.
LittleNipper wrote:If life existed on other planets, I believe that it would be God that would have put it there.
Thank you for admitting these are matters of faith and belief, not fact.
LittleNipper wrote:But I must admit, if it were proven tomorrow that we were the only planet in the entire universe with any life on it, atheists would be very hard pressed to believe that life on this singular rock at the edge of the Milky Way was anything but a miracle --- no matter what you might suggest otherwise.
You're in no position to "admit" this if you're not an atheist. This is nothing but a clumsy attempt at a straw man argument.
LittleNipper wrote:This would simply be another nail in the coffin of the unbeliever.
Of course, because you believe in a god of pain, vengeance, and death.
Surprise, surprise, there is no divine mandate for the Church to discuss and portray its history accurately. --Yahoo Bot
I pray thee, sir, forgive me for the mess. And whether I shot first, I'll not confess. --Han Solo, from William Shakespeare's Star Wars