Blasphemy or Biblical?

[_gdemetz]

I am neither wrong in my characterization of Christian or Mormon doctrine! The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the restored Christian church which includes the same doctrines and ordinances. Albion, I hate to be the one to inform you of this, but there were no alter calls in the primitive Christian church!

[_Albion]

I see that you are humble, too, gdemetz. It is tiresome to have to repeat myself so often but that apparently if often the way with those who prefer to only speak their piece rather than hearing what the other person has to say. You most certainly did mischaracterize the Christian position on salvation when you said: "You are one of those ignorant evangelicals who somehow has perverted the teachings of Christ concerning salvation to merely walking down the "isle" (your spelling)and making a profession of faith and being saved forever." I corrected you and pointed out that following behavior was an essential element, not to the saving, but to the demonstration that God's saving grace has taken place in the individual. You totally ignored this correction, neither acknowledging that you were wrong, but still persisting in your incorrect viewpoint. God's grace is poured out on the repentant sinner who seeks his forgiveness instantly...it is not about anything but God's grace, favor that we do not earn. Church membership does not save you...baptism does not save you...secret handshakes do not save you, and certainly a usurped priesthood that belongs only to Jesus does not save you. Only God's grace saves you.

Now, you are quite correct that the term "alter call" is not used in the Bible....but then I hasten to add that the early church didn't pray in King James English, use water instead of wine for communion (sacrament), wear a variation of longjohns with occultic symbols stitched into them, nor practice various handshakes as essential to the third heaven created by Mormonism. However, the principle of the altar call, being called publicly to Christ is clearly demonstrated in scripture...Jesus himself being a prime example: "Come to me and I will make you fishers of men."

Baptism is an important right for those who are saved, as a public demonstration of the saving grace that has taken place in the repentant sinner and if only because is demonstrates a willingness to follow in Jesus' footsteps. In and of itself it has no saving power...the water isn't magical with some ability to literally wash away sin. Baptism does not confer forgiveness of sin, any more than a medal awarded "for" valor confers valor on the recipient...as the medal recognizes valor that has taken place, so baptism recognizes the forgiveness of sin that has taken place through God's grace in the salvation process.

[_Albion]

I forgot one additional point as you persist in your incorrect charaterization of Christian belief. Faith without works is indeed dead...but works never saved anyone. If salvation is by works, as is clearly the position of Mormonism, then salvation ceases to be a free gift from God through his grace but then becomes earning by effort....and that, my friend, is not grace by any measure of the word. A reminder, too, that scripture clearly demonstrates the value of our works..."they are as filthy rags". Instead of trying to impress God with your works, which clearly to me you are trying to do, why not humbly accept the free gift of salvation that Christ offers through God's grace.

[_gdemetz]

Albion, I'm really growing tired of your ignorance! You stated so many things wrong that I hardly know where to begin. You stated so many things directly in opposition of what the scriptures state and teach! First of all, you play down the role of baptism which was clearly instructed by Christ for every "creature!" You also incorrectly state that this baptism which is done by faith as well as works does not save us! This is exactly opposite to what the scriptures state! "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth now save us..." 1 peter 3:21 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16

Listen to what knowledgeable scholars state! "And we know of no Christian in the New Testament who had not been baptized, either by John or in the name of Jesus. In John 3:5 ('born of the water and spirit' - the most likely reference to baptism) the beginning of new life in Christ..." The Illustrated Bible Dictionary (non Mormon)

BAPTISM. The sacramental rite which ADMITS a candidate to the Christian church. According to John 3:5, Christ announced the necessity of a spiritual regeneration 'of water and the spirit." The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (non Mormon)

I could give you more, but you would just probably ignore them anyway in favor of your heretical beliefs. You also stated that Christ only had the priesthood, which was very ignorant! All through the scriptures it states that the priesthood was given from God to men! Here is just one example. In Hebrews 5:4 Paul teaches that no man should take this honor (priesthood) unless he was called of God as was Aaron, and in Exodus 28:1 it tells how Aaron and his sons were given the priesthood! Paul even states that the priesthood is given by the laying on of hands (see 1 Timothy 4:14)! You also gave a silly example of an alter call by stating that Christ said come unto Him. Did He also tell them to make a profession of faith to Him so they could be saved forever?! Of course not! That's heretical hogwash! You also stated incorrectly that Mormon doctrine is that one is saved by works . Wrong again! Mormon doctrine is New Testament doctrine just as all the scholars I have quoted have affirmed! The New Testament and Mormon doctrine is that we are saved first by grace and second by works. Of course, we are saved by grace, but we must do our part also which involves keeping the commandments and enduring to the end; for if we "sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," Hebrews 10:26 What did Christ Himself state was necessary for salvation?! He stated: "If thou will enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:17 He also stated; "but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

I have given you quotes from the experts, quotes from the scriptures, and even quotes from Christ Himself! However, you appear to be so ignorant and spiritually blind that I believe that you will no doubt try to twist the meanings of all that in a feeble attempt to justify that ridiculous heretical "evangelical" tale!!!

[_Albion]

gdemetz, I am not going to go round and round with you on this. I have stated the Christian position with regard to the role of baptism, both for the living and for the dead, and yet you still persist in mischaracterizing it as if you have not even read what I have posted. You cannot post one shred of evidence for the widespread practice of baptism for the dead in the early church, the Interpreter's Bible not withstanding, but choose to make the giant leap that somehow a church council banning the practice is an explicit proof that it was widespread. It is akin to believing that polygamy was widepsread in the Mormon Church when it was banned even when you have posted and argued that it wasn't. At its heart the Mormon practice rests entirely on Paul's words in Corinthians, given in a "sermon" that is entirely about another subject. Even your own Book of Mormon, supposedly a second witness, makes no mention of the practice....that's how important it was. "The Fullness of the Everlasting Gospel" indeed?

"Paul clearly refers to a distinct group within the Church, a group that he accuses of inconsistency between ritual and doctrine." Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Paul consistently spoke out against pagan practices that "converts' were bringing into the body of believers. This was one of them.

Paul has said: "Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel." A clear reminder to the Corinthians that it is the message of Christ's death for our sins which is received in faith that can regenerate and transform the individual from within, not the external rite of baptism, even though it is important as an outward sign of the faith and obedience that has taken place.

Not that it has any real value to Christians, but I also refer you to your own book, The Book of Mormon: "And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said, Helam. I baptize thee, having authority from Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead, as to the mortal body." Mosiah 18:13. So, even Book of Mormon baptism only lasted for life.

As I said, gdemetz, I will not go round and round with you on this topic any longer. If you want to bring up any of the other issues you allude to I suggest a new thread, or threads, since there are several and they can't be covered in one response. Perhaps you can omit personal attacks from those new threads since they do nothing for your argument but do much to undermine the "god in embryo" status that you claim for yourself.

[_Tobin]

gdemetz - What about the ritual of baptism actually saves you? I would argue not one single thing.

Now, consider this. Should the true Church go around baptising dead holocaust victims, when no living relatives of those victims are members? What about that seems like a good idea or wouldn't be found to be extremely offensive to the surviving relatives of those victims?

I personally don't have a problem with baptism or baptism for the dead if they request it. But I can't think of a single revelation from God stating that so and so requested to be baptized in Mormon scriptures? Can you? So if the dead don't ask for it, why are Mormons doing it?

* correction * I believe Joseph Smith's elder brother Alvin asked. So, ok - Mormons should baptize him and stop right there.

[_gdemetz]

The ritual does not affect the free agency of anyone any more than if I went through the motion of handing you a candy bar and you refused it! The person has a perfect right to reject that ordinance! Having said that, the church is sensitive to the family members and respects the wishes of all concerned. That is why certain rules were given for performing those ordinances. Unfortunately, some members were apparently ignorant of previous church guidelines regarding this and did not follow those rules.

[_Albion]

Personally I have no problem with anyone being dead dunked from my family since it is a ritual of no value. That said, I find it questionable in the extreme that no one at Mormon Church hq would not notice when names like Adolf Hitler, Princess Diana of Wales, and Anne Frank and thousands of others were being submitted by ordinary members. My own opinion is that these were submitted by that same church hq. Makes me wonder if Mohammed has had his "work" done.

[_Drifting]

Personally I have no problem with anyone being dead dunked from my family since it is a ritual of no value. That said, I find it questionable in the extreme that no one at Mormon Church hq would not notice when names like Adolf Hitler, Princess Diana of Wales, and Anne Frank and thousands of others were being submitted by ordinary members. My own opinion is that these were submitted by that same church hq. Makes me wonder if Mohammed has had his "work" done.

I am led to believe that Jesus the Christ has had His work done.
(No...I'm not kidding...)

[_Albion]

No doubt. I find the protestations of innocence on the part of the Mormon Church in this matter and echoed by gdemetz as to be laughable.