Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_Albion]

It is because I understand Mormonism and its teachings that I have rejected them.

[_jo1952]

Jo, a clarification. My use of the term rubbish was in connection with those things I have left behind to come into a relationship with Christ Jesus.

Thank you, Albion.

Blessings,

jo

[_Tobin]

It is because I understand Mormonism and its teachings that I have rejected them.

And I understand Mormonism and accept it. It would seem we have a difference of opinion. Which of us is correct? I suspect we both are and at the same time, I suspect we both are equally incorrect because of the what we think we understand but don't really understand.

[_jo1952]

It is because I understand Mormonism and its teachings that I have rejected them.

Hi Albion,

This is not a problem for me. Heck, I reject your interpretations of the Bible. I hope that is not a problem for you. Still, I believe we are both where we are supposed to be. Are we not both trying our best to love and understand God? Are we not both trying our best to love one another? I see no deceit in you in this respect. Likewise, I hope you see no deceit in me in this respect. That is what God is interested in; He is not concerned with whether or not our beliefs are correct. He is happy we are seeking Him. He is happy we are trying to keep the two greatest commandments. I believe this is what it all boils down to. If we are doing our best with these two commandments, then the rest will eventually follow; i.e., we will naturally desire to continually seek Truth, and we will be prepared to receive more and more parts until we have received All Truth.

Blessings,

jo

[_ludwigm]

Though, I haven't seen a cartoon posted by you for a while.

Here is one for You [offtopic], because of Olympic:

For some others, visit Wulff and Morgenthaler!
They have one for every day.

That's probably because I am not reading the threads you are placing them on.

Apparently You have a bad taste selecting the threads to read.

often times "names" are also "titles"

We, hungarians don't use caps for titles.
Elvis is a king of something, a traitor is one judas, someone who is skeptical is called a doubting thomas.
No way to misunderstand. Names are capitalized, titles are not.
In stupid english*, one can confuse.

*(I don't bash Your language. Languages can not regularize, they grow as weed. The grammar is not for rule, it is a description of the common usage only. For example, capitalizing of the name of a language or people make no sense. I am not Hungarian, I am hungarian. A loved pet is a dog or a cat, not Dog, not Cat.)

For instance, I believe "Adam" is a "Title" given to each first man

For instance, if one man and ten women escape after shipwreck to an island, he is an adam...

Some other names which are Titles would include "Elias", "Elijah"

...but I hope You know this is two different name of one and same man...

Even though John the Baptist denied that he was Elijah

He was right because he was not THAT PERSON!

Jesus taught His Apostles that John the Baptist WAS Elijah.

No. He taught that John the Baptist is one of elijahes, he is one who works same way as Elijah did...

multiple probations - which is also known as reincarnation

# (represents a word doesn't fit to celestial forum, that is, a less polite one)

the spirit which dwelled in his physical body had also dwelled in the physical body of Elijah due to the veil of forgetfulness

#

spirit beings, as they progress through various incarnations

#

I have no doubt really muddied the waters for you.

I have water filter in my brain.

[_Mittens]

A Marvelous Work and a Wonder
Chapter 13
The Mission of Elijah
Elijah's coming foretold
The next major event we will consider in this "restution of all things" (acts 3 :19-21) is the coming of Elijah in fulfillment of Malachi 4:5-6

Matthew 11:
11 “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Mark 9:
11 And they asked Him, saying, “Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”
12 Then He answered and told them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and restores all things. And how is it written concerning the Son of Man, that He must suffer many things and be treated with contempt? 13 But I say to you that Elijah has also come, and they did to him whatever they wished, as it is written of him.”

Luke 1:
17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,£ and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”


Jesus said John the Baptist was Elijah:



Matthew 17:10 Then his disciples asked him, “Why do the teachers of religious law insist that Elijah must return before the Messiah comes?”
11 Jesus replied, “Elijah is indeed coming first to get everything ready for the Messiah. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, but he wasn’t recognized, and they chose to abuse him. And in the same way they will also make the Son of Man suffer.” 13 Then the disciples realized he was talking about John the Baptist.

It's quite Obvious John The Baptist is Elijah spoken of in Malachi 4:5-6

[_ludwigm]

It's quite Obvious John The Baptist is Elijah spoken of in Malachi 4:5-6

It is quite obvious fundamentalists like to get things too literal.

What makes any person identical to himself/herself?
The robe? The appearance? The words said? The behaviour?

Assume - for the play only - I call You Thomas Aquinas of this forum.
Does that mean that You look like him?
?? ?? Probably not.

Imagine that somebody (me or god or satan) place his spirit into You.
Well, the spirit is an undefined thing for me, so I would say a transplant surgery. Putting his brain into Your head. (Your original brain become unnecessary - go to garbage.)
From that minute on, You talk and walk like him. You are Thomas Aquinas - and You speak Italian or Latin, don't understand the people talking English around You, and don't understand the whole evil world around You.
The brain (or spirit, if this is the proper word) made you 800 year behind the times.

Similarly, putting Elijah's brain/spirit into the body of John the Baptist
- makes the original JtB past records (education, training) unnecessary
- moves this elijah-zombie from Northern Kingdom of Israel (9th century BC) to Judea, AD 33
He wouldn't understand a word, he wouldn't understand the world.

So, John the Baptist was not Elijah, he was one like Elijah.

And You are not Thomas Aquinas, I am sorry for the bad news.

[_gdemetz]

Jo, I sympathize with you. We seem to be beating our heads against the wall here. I am frustrated because I keep quoting the Bible to Albion, but he keeps trying to counter with evangelical stuff. A good example of this is the third heaven which Paul mentions. Doesn't it make sense to you that if there is a third heaven, then there must be a first and second also?!

[_jo1952]

Yes, but I think some people have knowingly blinded themselves to the truth because of other parts they don't understand very well. I am often perplexed by these lists of reasons people reject Mormonism and can't comprehend the reason that these lists exist at all. If God didn't tell you it was true in the first place, why are people embracing Mormonism at all? That seems to me to be the source of the problem. These lists of reasons they reject Mormonism are merely a symptom.

Hello Tobin!!

This is the source of all of the various interpretations of Scripture. God allows this to take place because He will not take away our free agency. Man's pride and ego eventually cause all religions to stray from whatever parts of Truth they were originally founded upon. Look at how often the Israelites strayed over and over and over again. The New Testament indicates many times that there were false teachers and false prophets among the members. The same thing is manifested in the Book of Mormon!

Too many in Christendom choose to forget, do not know, or refuse to acknowledge that even the church Jesus established when He walked the earth did NOT have all of the parts of Truth revealed to her. This is something which Jesus actually taught; but people don’t want to accept even their Savior’s teaching. He is upfront in admitting that He did not teach them everything He knew. Instead, He taught them what Father told Him to teach. So, WHAT was the reason Jesus gave? They were NOT ready! Paul taught the members of the church the very same thing! He wouldn’t teach them more because they weren’t ready! Paul even goes on to say that they SHOULD have been ready; yet they were not. Likewise, the Apostles were forbidden to teach all the parts of Truth which had been taught to them. Jesus explains that it will be the Holy Spirit who will lead us to All Truth.

What else do we know about what Jesus DID teach? If all that He taught WAS written down, His words would fill volumes and volumes. This would create an extremely difficult situation for most believers to then be able to have a complete set of all of His teachings from which to study. It is no wonder, then, that the Holy Spirit was given to the earth to lead us to All Truth; and then, we still receive the parts of All Truth that Father knows we are ready for.

With these circumstances, how is it possible for any man to conclude that he has either already received All Truth, or that the parts of Truth he has had revealed to him is all that he needs to know? Both of these extremes effectively DENY what Jesus taught us. If an individual HAS received All Truth, then he would be able to see, and thus be able to enter, the Kingdom of God. WHY would Jesus bother to explain that the Holy Spirit would lead us to All Truth if He didn’t expect us to seek for it; or that we didn’t need to seek for it? How can we born of the Spirit, if the Holy Spirit HASN’T revealed All Truth to us? We CANNOT see the Kingdom of God unless and until we have been born of the Spirit. We cannot enter the Kingdom of God if we can’t see the Kingdom of God. This is such simple logic. Why does man need to complicate such a simple teaching??!! If a person is not ready to receive All Truth, why does that person assume he/she doesn’t need to receive it? The PURPOSE of the Holy Spirit is not only to be a witness, but also to be the one who DOES lead us to All Truth.

Once you become a believer, if what you are taught is doctrine which has already strayed, then indeed, you are starting off with incorrect understandings. I see this same type of pattern elsewhere in man's existence. This is not unique to religious beliefs; it permeates all parts of man's worldview: science, education, politics, medicine, his likes and dislikes in all aspects of life, etc. It IS frustrating, isn't it?!! Even as we see this in others, they also see this in us.

I will continue to share what I believe, and so will you, and so will others. We will be perplexed by those who don't agree with us. We will rejoice when we find someone who does believe as we do. The thing is to not stop our own personal seeking of Truth no matter what others may say or do to us who don't agree.

When more parts of Truth are revealed to me, it seems so obvious; and I cannot understand how I could ever have missed that layer of meaning before. When Truth is revealed, it has the effect of keeping me wondering why something so "plain and in your face" was not understood before. Yet on another level, I also realize that I was just not yet ready to see it. And so it is for each and every one of us.

Anyway, I guess I have a less patience than you (something I may need to work on). I really can't put up with people telling me what to believe about Mormonism, especially when they have often rejected it. That seems to be a common theme in the responses I get in this forum. For some reason, they think that endless quote mining will impress me more than a reasonable argument or understanding of the gospel. Instead of engaging my view, they deny my view by stating so-and-so said otherwise. Again, I'm unimpressed by that. I believe the truth (and gospel) must be consistent and understandable in the real world and given our understanding of it. Without that, it may as well be fiction because it isn't grounded in anything real.

Tobin, patience does not prevent me from getting frustrated, or keep me from shaking my head. I am far from perfect. You have places you have surpassed me. This is as it should be. We are all different; we have different speeds at which we can learn different things. We will also learn parts of Truth in a different order than the next person. I just want to be edified; and hopefully, I can offer something which can edify another. We cannot edify one another while we are fighting and arguing with each other.

Absolutely, whatever interpretations of Scripture are revealed to us CANNOT require us to dismiss any other parts of Scripture; from there we MUST be able to integrate that with our understanding of our world. If this means we need to adjust HOW we see our world, then we had better do it; otherwise, we wind up denying and/or abandoning Truth which has been revealed to us.

At the end of the day, we need to keep reminding ourselves to do our best at keeping the two great commandments. Even though this can prove to be very difficult, it is through these commandments (which I also refer to as “tools” which God has given us) whereby we are able to find the peace and strength to keep moving forward. This brings me another thought. How can we become One with the Father and with the Son, if the rest of mankind does not also return to God? We all came from the same Realm as Father – it is where we need to return in order to be Truly One again. Otherwise, there will be parts missing from what used to be One (or whole, if you wish). I will take this thought further…..currently our will is not in alignment with God’s will; albeit our desire is that our will be In alignment with Father’s will. Even Jesus, when He was in the Garden of Gethsemane, in weakness, asked if there was a way for the cup to be taken away from Him. However, He chose instead to do Father’s will.

Now, who else has manifested that their will is not in alignment with Father’s will? It is easy to answer that it would be anyone who is not perfect – only a couple of individuals were named in the Bible as being perfect who were on the earth at the time they were perfect; and only one was named by Jesus as being perfect in Heaven (i.e., Father). That leaves us pretty much with the rest of mankind. Now, mankind is a state of being within which our spirits dwell in a temporary and temporal existence. When we are not in a physical body, our spirit exists in the Spiritual Realm. Even then, our physical world also exists inside of the spiritual realm---we just are not able to the spiritual realm. There are other spirits in the spiritual realm who have manifested they are not in alignment with Father’s will. Specifically, Lucifer and the third of the host of Heaven who followed him, are out of alignment with God’s will. We are taught that Lucifer was perfect in his ways at one point. He would have been a member, or a part, of the “whole”; In other words, he and his followers as well as the rest of us would have been One with the Father. Therefore, is it necessary for Lucifer and his followers to also return to being in alignment with Father’s will in order for the original “whole” to be “whole”/One again? I think Lucifer’s name was changed to “Satan” in order to indicate that Lucifer was no longer a part of the whole/One. The whole or Oneness was shattered. Additionally, Lucifer (under the title of Satan) now became useful for God's purposes in the Plan of Salvation.

We are supposed to pray for each other – for all others – and I have also prayed for Satan and his followers because I cannot bear the thought that even one soul would not be able to return to God’s presence. Indeed, while our own spirit’s will is not in alignment with Father’s will, how far different are we than Satan and his followers? To me it appears that it could really only be reflective of a matter of timing. Is it possible that as co-heirs we will also at some point experience being a "Christ"? Even, in our eternal progression, will we also at some point experience being a "satan"? Now, once All Truth is revealed to us; once our spirit is again born of the Spirit, and we are able to see and enter the Kingdom of God, at what point do we become “One”? Does this happen simultaneously? Is this “Oneness” a “collective” Oneness? I believe that the answer is yes. Would this Oneness, then, require that ALL return to God’s presence before a True Oneness can take place? In other words, will this require that Satan shed the title of Satan, and once more be known as Lucifer, and return to God’s presence along with all of his followers? Is that when the whole Oneness will take place? The healing of the whole One?

For a long time, I have believed in universal salvation. However, that “version” of universal salvation did not include Satan and his followers. Then how could that version of universal actually BE universal? It seems that as my understanding has evolved about universal salvation, universal cannot exclude a third of the host of Heaven. Universal can only BE universal if 100% of the host of Heaven are included. by the way, this includes all of mankind who is so busy arguing over God, over interpretations of scripture, over what are the actual beliefs of any particular religious institution, and those who would close the gates of Heaven to anyone who does not agree with them.

Blessings,

[_Tobin]

For a long time, I have believed in universal salvation. However, that “version” of universal salvation did not include Satan and his followers. Then how could that version of universal actually BE universal? It seems that as my understanding has evolved about universal salvation, universal cannot exclude a third of the host of Heaven. Universal can only BE universal if 100% of the host of Heaven are included. by the way, this includes all of mankind who is so busy arguing over God, over interpretations of scripture, over what are the actual beliefs of any particular religious institution, and those who would close the gates of Heaven to anyone who does not agree with them.

I'm not convinced about universal exaltation though. I believe everyone will be saved in a sense that they will be resurrected and not cease to exist, even those that completely reject and rebel against God and choose perdition. In the case of perdition, they will have no glory, the second death will take them as they must wallow in their sins, and they will be with Satan. However, I draw the line at exaltation. Even though everyone will acknowledge Jesus (even the demons acknowledge him), that doesn't mean they will be willing to follow him and do as the Lord commands and requires. I've mentioned this to MnG too, but I don't think she understood what I was saying about this. I think you can choose to progress in the next life, but equally - I believe you can choose to not progress or even fall. And because of this freedom of will, I can't get behind the idea that everyone will attain higher and higher degrees of exaltation.