For former Mormons who became atheists

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
Post Reply
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _Res Ipsa »

OK, I've studied 1 Corinthians, which was a helpful explanation of your worldview. Sadly, I think it presents an insurmountable obstacle. I think these two verses from Chapter 2 really say it all:

14 Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

15 Those who are spiritual discern all things, and they are themselves subject to no one else’s scrutiny.


(I read a few translations and thought the NIV was clearest)

According to these verses, no matter what you tell me about your beliefs, I can never see the truth because it is hidden from me. You, on the other hand, discern all things and are not subject to scrutiny. Whatever you tell me will look like foolishness because I am disqualified from understanding it.

If those verses represent what you believe, then that seems to me to be an insurmountable obstacle to any attempt to understand your worldview.

So I'll disengage. You can do your typical insult/gloat schtick. And we can both go on to other things.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Well, that's convenient.

Well before it was used to describe the God-denier, the word "atheist" served to condemn the thinking of the man even marginally liberated from authority and social supervision in questions of thought and reflection the atheist was a man free in god's eyes and ultimately free to deny God's existence.

- Michel Onfray


It's sad what Christianity has done to mankind. It's made them fundamentally hate who they are, and mistrust those who don't share their self-contempt.

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_subgenius
_Emeritus
Posts: 13326
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _subgenius »

Brad Hudson wrote:OK, I've studied 1 Corinthians, which was a helpful explanation of your worldview. Sadly, I think it presents an insurmountable obstacle. I think these two verses from Chapter 2 really say it all:

14 Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

15 Those who are spiritual discern all things, and they are themselves subject to no one else’s scrutiny.


(I read a few translations and thought the NIV was clearest)

According to these verses, no matter what you tell me about your beliefs, I can never see the truth because it is hidden from me. You, on the other hand, discern all things and are not subject to scrutiny. Whatever you tell me will look like foolishness because I am disqualified from understanding it.

If those verses represent what you believe, then that seems to me to be an insurmountable obstacle to any attempt to understand your worldview.

So I'll disengage. You can do your typical insult/gloat schtick. And we can both go on to other things.


There is no cause for gloating...and insults are merely as you would perceive them, if my frank and brutal honesty about a situation has been offensive then i apologize...but it is interesting that there is a "spirit" to the words we read....a "spirit" you consider to objective across my typing and your reading.

I think you finally do understand the basic point for most every disagreement posted on this thread. So often the atheist uses the measure and means of the temporal in order to judge, pronounce, or even proclaim various opinions and "truths" about all things theistic. Which is obviously an error given what the non-temporal experience reveals.
So, ultimately since you do not consider the non-temporal to exist it is rather nonsensical for you to be engaged at all, correct? I mean, i understand curiosity or even enjoying debate for the sake of debate...but how can you possibly "learn" anything from a discussion about something that you do not consider valid? Its not like we are debating the finer points of Moby Dick.
Perhaps i have been presumptive about your motivation, but lacking any real clarification for what you hope to accomplish i suppose i let my imagination go wild in an effort to evoke it from you...a silly technique, but one you seemingly are aware of.

If you are unfamiliar with the following, enjoy
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~orie0087/framesetpdfs.shtml
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Thank you for your graciousness and the references. I'll give them a read.

Yes, I do think I can learn things from discussions about theories/philosophies/worldviews that I don't accept as "valid." I don't think I have to accept the premises of a particular philosophy to gain knowledge or insight from learning about it.

I do get the atmosphere of distrust around here. But it is jarring.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Maybe this is what Job ought to have done?

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2012/de ... 7-year-ol/

For Sub-Genius:

What's the difference between these two who felt the Spirit to instill god-obedience, and Abraham or God for that matter?

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Hermes
_Emeritus
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:27 am

Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _Hermes »

For me, love is problematic. It can be a positive thing (when your spouse shows it for you thoughtfully), but it can also be terrible (when your spouse uses it to browbeat you into submission). Love exists only a few moments away from hatred, which is its other face (not its categorical opposite: love and hatred turn into and inspire each other all the time; the categorical opposite of love/hatred is apathy or indifference). If Jesus loves, then he also hates. If he loves me today, then he might hate me tomorrow (or I him).

The next problem I have is the universe itself. I don't see it being loving/hateful. I see it simply existing, outside all my concepts (like love and hatred). The universe is more real than my small idea(s) about it. I see little things in it, nice things like my kids laughing, and I think, "Oh, the universe loves me!" But what happens when the universe delivers some seriously evil stuff (genocide, starvation, natural disasters obviously outside human control)? How is that love? (The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the love of God and the hatred of God are the same thing.) Even more problematic, how is it coherent? God (love?) doesn't go around making itself known to us simply. I cannot talk to it and get a clear answer. (Maybe I pray and get something nice. Maybe I get something awful. Maybe neither one is my fault. Maybe it isn't the fault of some unknown consciousness running the whole show, behind the scenes where I cannot see.)

I like religions that emphasize building good human values without projecting those values into the world (necessarily: they might be there in some places, but you get no promises that the world is nice). I aspire to make my life nice, but I don't think there is any sure way to do that. I am dependent on things outside my control for happiness (which is always fleeting), and I see no evidence that these things fall under the jurisdiction of a kind omnipotence (whose love makes me happy while making children in Ethiopia miserable: why? where is the love and power here?).

http://argeiphontes.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-theology-of-mormon-christian-atheist.html
Stranger, please don't shoot me
Or hate me for a fraud:
I am just the messenger
Of your inscrutable God.
_Hermes
_Emeritus
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:27 am

Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _Hermes »

I also don't think that theological stuff really matters that much. Showing love is a good thing, whether I believe in the absolute lovingkindness of the universe or not.
Stranger, please don't shoot me
Or hate me for a fraud:
I am just the messenger
Of your inscrutable God.
_LittleNipper
_Emeritus
Posts: 4518
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _LittleNipper »

Hermes wrote:I also don't think that theological stuff really matters that much. Showing love is a good thing, whether I believe in the absolute lovingkindness of the universe or not.

Love is a good thing. But by love one is not speaking in terms of sexual acts.
_Hermes
_Emeritus
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:27 am

Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _Hermes »

Who said anything about sex? Replace "spouse" in my examples above with anything you like, and don't assume that love is sex. A mother's love for her child can be wonderful (inspirational, protective, vital), and it can also be terrible (controlling, manipulative, possessive, evil). People do awful things for love sometimes, because they care (too much). That was all I was trying to say.
Stranger, please don't shoot me
Or hate me for a fraud:
I am just the messenger
Of your inscrutable God.
_subgenius
_Emeritus
Posts: 13326
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _subgenius »

Hermes wrote:For me, love is problematic. It can be a positive thing (when your spouse shows it for you thoughtfully), but it can also be terrible (when your spouse uses it to browbeat you into submission). Love exists only a few moments away from hatred, which is its other face (not its categorical opposite: love and hatred turn into and inspire each other all the time; the categorical opposite of love/hatred is apathy or indifference). If Jesus loves, then he also hates. If he loves me today, then he might hate me tomorrow (or I him).

Huh?

Hermes wrote:The next problem I have is the universe itself. I don't see it being loving/hateful. I see it simply existing, outside all my concepts (like love and hatred). The universe is more real than my small idea(s) about it.

You see a universe that you cannot see? ("more real" outside your concepts)...now that is a nice faith based statement.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hermes wrote: I see little things in it, nice things like my kids laughing, and I think, "Oh, the universe loves me!" But what happens when the universe delivers some seriously evil stuff (genocide, starvation, natural disasters obviously outside human control)? How is that love? (The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the love of God and the hatred of God are the same thing.) Even more problematic, how is it coherent? God (love?) doesn't go around making itself known to us simply. I cannot talk to it and get a clear answer. (Maybe I pray and get something nice. Maybe I get something awful. Maybe neither one is my fault. Maybe it isn't the fault of some unknown consciousness running the whole show, behind the scenes where I cannot see.)

one man's trash is another man's treasure.
How can you possibly love your child and also discipline them is seemingly the confusion you are having.
How can you pronounce your love for your own child but then watch (and at times derive humor from) their sincere suffering when you do not buy them that new xbox they so desperately want and that they consider to be "so good"...their suffering is real and your love is real...yet you would question only the latter.

Hermes wrote:I like religions that emphasize building good human values without projecting those values into the world (necessarily: they might be there in some places, but you get no promises that the world is nice). I aspire to make my life nice, but I don't think there is any sure way to do that. I am dependent on things outside my control for happiness (which is always fleeting), and I see no evidence that these things fall under the jurisdiction of a kind omnipotence (whose love makes me happy while making children in Ethiopia miserable: why? where is the love and power here?).

yet, for example, without evidence you consider the universe to be "more real"....why?



ugh

Image
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
Post Reply