What is the Miracle of Forgiveness? (revisited)

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi inConceivable :-) i'll interject in bold...

Thanks guys. I'm torn between your two frames of minds.

One thing I'm begining to realize is that I don't have to harbor guilt until the church, or even God to gives me their absolvance before I forgive myself. RM: "Guilt" is misused, IMSCO, unless we are speaking 'crime'. Awareness of abuse of self or others that requires "forgiveness" of self AND others, is of a different nature. Remorse for such is a product of understanding a 'mistake' was made that might require, "i'm sorry...how can i make up for it?..." A church, or "God" has NOTHING to do with it! It is between me-and-thee, so to speak...

Subconsiously, I wasn't allowed to let the guilt go until after I went to the bishop and confessed, getting some of that inspired counsel regarding penance because somehow I offended the church as well. RM: better to have gone to the party involved, IF possible. A Bishop, or ANY third party is simply a surrogate for the 'offended'. Counselling might help. OTOH, it could add to guilt. Not good...

Because there was a specific order in the "steps of repentance", I assumed that forgiving myself always came last, and only then could I let go of the guilt - always waiting for an external green light. Psychologically, I always felt better walking out of the bishop's office because it was natural for me to think I could finally let it go. RM: i think 'conditioning &/or 'indoctrination' seed that feeling. Not all bad when one has been fostered in guilt, shame and the requisite "steps of repentance". A lot to unlearn on the path to "freedom by truth"...

If Jesus and his promises are real, I can see how this way of thinking could place limits, restrictions and distractions on witnessing His healing power. I think I was one of it's victims.

I respectfully suggest, the reality of Jesus is insidental to the psyche damage many have suffered through the centuries. Well-intended prescriptions issued by incompetent "physicians" have not had a good track record as a "cure-all"... As (if/when) Christianism sees itself to have been part of the problem, and goes through the "steps of repentance", we might be 'fast-tracked' to REALLY understanding the "Two New Commandments".

Then apply them. Individually and collectively to benefit from "the good-news," IMSCO... Warm regards, Roger

[_Z]

Very inciteful and thought provoking post, Z. It really does hit close to home.

In all soberness, how in the world did you get past the truth of the history, or at least the appearance of evil? How do you believe God made that right with you? I am unable to see a probable transition or even resolution.

Hence, my screen name, etc.

On the same note, I never had a mind to study church history so that I might reveal blemishes or seek out ways to justify unrighteous behavior. I simply began to with the intent to better know the heros I would have gladly died for. I was devastated.

I'll tell you what, its really hard. And I'm still walking a precarious path. Despite my major life-changing experience I've been quite close to falling away since then. In all honesty I'm kind of in a place like that right now. But what keeps me going is my past experiences. I've had so many instances in my study of church history where there seemed to be no answer for what critics of the church have claimed. I mean literally, the case seemed closed and the leaders of the church were guilty. And then all of a sudden I'd stumble onto something (always with the help of the spirit) and it would change my perspective and the answer would seem obvious. And I'm not just talking about apologetics, I'm not talking about finding a thread of hope that made it "possible" for it to still be true, I'm talking about new information or a new perspective that now pushed the preponderance of the evidence in favor of the church. I can't emphasize enough that no matter how completely impossible it would seem, no matter how much I felt like I'd already looked at all angles, I've found complete and logical answers. And that has happened to me over and over and over again.

The image I always have in my mind, because I work in a hospital, is the administration of something called adenosine. You use it to slow someone's heart rate, but its really frightening to administer because it completely stops and resets the heart. So you put it in and then you all stand there while the person flatlines and just shakes for 30 seconds or so. And the flatline ALWAYS seems like its going too long. longer than last time. I always start to look around for the defribulator. I always worry that we've just killed someone's family member. And then their heart always starts again. It always comes back better than before. I don't know how many times I've done it but it still scares the hell out of me.

Its like that. When I'm spiritually flatlining, I don't act like its all over any more. I expect to pull out, and I keep my faith realizing that my understanding is on hold. And though it always seems like its almost too much, the answers always come. But the key is keeping faith while you investigate, because as soon as you give up you lose access to the spirit, and that makes everything harder.

Once again what I've given above is my current perspective. I'm not 100% sure about anything. If you were to graph my testimony it would be a series of jagged points that slowly reach higher and higher. A suppose if I push forward in this manner for a couple more years I'll get to the point where I have full confidence that all the necessary answers are out there but I'm not quite at that point yet.

In fact, despite my confidence in the other thread the Book of Abraham is really ripping me up right now. I feel like I've got solid answers to alot of criticisms but there are some questions that right now seem impossible to answer. I've actually got appointments with two bonified egyptologists, one LDS, and one not, coming up in the next couple weeks. So I'm a little anxious to see how that all goes. Despite how impossible it seems I'd say I'm 75% sure that an answer will come soon, just based on my past experiences.

So that's how it goes. And its a journey. But I'm glad I'm doing it this way honestly. Because if I come out on top then I'll be unshakeable. And if I don't then at least I won't wonder whether I tried hard enough. And besides, its certainly more productive to be on this roller-coaster journey than to be lying awake every night, lost and empty.

[_Inconceivable]

Z,

I can see where your approach can have some very positive side effects. One of which is that you are not so much driven by anger, betrayal and fear, but rather by hope that by some miraculous twist, the appearance of evil is in fact a mere mortal's misunderstanding of God's ways. In other words, hold to what you believe you have convictions of, be patient, and a viable solution will eventually present itself.

Like I said previously, I wasn't studying the history of the prophets to discover and expose faults. Let me try to explain. When I've asked my kids to mow the lawn, sometimes I'll follow up to discover they have yet to begin. Their excuse might be that they couldn't find the gas can. My kids know what I'll say next as I point to the can, "there's a reason why the robbers never find the cops" (for those of you that are a little slow, it's because it's not in their nature to look for them).

It never occurred to me that I could actually find what I wasn't looking for. I fully expected to find myself inspired by more of the same that is found in the faithful history - their peaceable walk, words of wisdom, impeccable character, committment to integrity, sound understanding of gospel principles...

At this point I still harbor feelings of anger and betrayal that have desensitized me to the spiritual manifestations of comfort and peace I have felt previously. It makes one feel very much alone.

[_Z]

Very much alone indeed. I know that crushing loneliness. I know what its like to feel so terribly lonely even when surrounded by friends and family. Its just about the worst feeling in the world I think.

And I know those feelings of betrayal and anger. Like you I wanted to learn more about what I expected to be the glorious and miraculous history of the church. I wanted to learn more about a prophet I revered. I fought my disillusionment for a long time but when it finally sank in it made me feel so empty. It was like my legs were swept out from under me.

It took me years to be able to pick up a Book of Mormon again, or to go to church with my family and not be snarling the whole time. But I'll tell you what. And I'll say it again, I'm not trying to convert anybody. But it was when I conciously humbled myself, and decided grudgingly to give the Book of Mormon another try, that was when I was changed.

And now that I think about it, it was very much the reverse of my previous experience. I started reading expecting to find more of the BS I'd found before. I expected to feel more of the superficial emotions that I'd felt before. And what I found was very different than what I expected .

And I still sometimes feel that same anger and loneliness when I'm at my lowest. And like I said before I'm not 100% sure of anything. I often feel like I'm fighting a battle wherein if I win I gain salvation and if I don't I lose my sanity. Which is a frightening thing. But I love truth more than comfort, as you obviously do. I'm hoping there's a way to have both.

[_Inconceivable]

It took me years to be able to pick up a Book of Mormon again, or to go to church with my family and not be snarling the whole time. But I'll tell you what. And I'll say it again, I'm not trying to convert anybody. But it was when I conciously humbled myself, and decided grudgingly to give the Book of Mormon another try, that was when I was changed.

And now that I think about it, it was very much the reverse of my previous experience. I started reading expecting to find more of the BS I'd found before. I expected to feel more of the superficial emotions that I'd felt before. And what I found was very different than what I expected .

I wish I could say I can't identify with everything you've said.

I can open the Book of Mormon to any page and recall the entire chapter. The consistancy of the message and doctrine is remarkable. There are so many principles that define and exemplify a peaceable walk. It is disarming in it's approach for the most part. It has always been my favorite book. I might add that I threw the one I had carried for over 20 years in the corner of a bottom drawer about a year ago and there it remains. Yet my current conclusion is that Joseph Smith had no idea what he had. If he read it, he did not understand or internalize it. I believe he made a mockery of what I have held dear from it's teachings. Realistically, I would rather have stuffed him in the drawer and kept the book.

I know that this goes against the faithful "all or nothing" doctrine that if the Book of Mormon is true then Joseph Smith is a prophet etc.

Another way of saying "if/then.." is: "do what you will, but the law states that the baby stays with the bathwater".

It defies my simple reasoning.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Z, your candor is remarkable--"it's ominous!" You said on page 2:

And so excuse me if I insinuate that "MY Church has more truth than yer church!" because while I appreciate the universal truth found in so many beleif systems, my personal spiritual journey has led me in one direction much more often than the others. And I'm aware that my being born in the church could have biased me towards it. I'm very aware of that fact and always have been. But my spiritual feelings are palpable, seem to come from outside me, and are very clear. I'm still aware that there's a possibility that brain chemistry could be the culprit, but if I beleive in the sovereignity of my conciousness in any way, or if I beleive the spirit is really accessible in any way, I have to beleive in this. Because otherwise I'm back where I was before, and I might as well be dead. (Bold added)

Respectfully Z, you represent a classic case of the effects of cultish indoctrination. Much like the entrapment of a debilitating addiction. 'Suffer' with it, in a sense of knowing it's 'wrong' while at the same time receiving a pay-back creating, dependency--can't live without it--"I might as well be dead." Does this not reveal a state of being at the opposite end of, "...the truth will set YOU free!" You seem to be anything but "free"...

I can, & do, relate to much of what you say re finding "truthS"/(principles-IF-lived-bring-good-stuff) within the BM. This does not automatically make/mean the whole-book is "true". Nor does it endorse Joseph Smith as a divinely led Prophet of "God"; that is dangerously cultish.

Does this mean, "no one should EVER belong to the CJC-LDS." Of course not! But, they should do so at their own discreation. IMSCO, it is imperative to ones psyche & spiritual well-being to UNDERSTAND the Church, (any Church); which is vastly different than KNOWING the Church... Non are perfect, BUT they do provide a community that CAN be comforting--to some, some times.

I am so very sorry you feel that YOUR life hinges on Mormonism. Not meaning to be trite, but i respectfully suggest, YOUR life, as any other, depends on oxygen, water, food and shelter. All provided to every living creature by an unconditioningly loving/providing "God", whether 'sinner-while-sinning' or 'saint-while-sainting' :-)

Inconceivable said:

"do what you will, but the law states that the baby stays with the bathwater".

How about this: "When panning for gold, one depends on "the law that states"--gold settles to the bottom of the pan, and does not go out with the water. ;-)"

Gotta be metaphorical some how?? We're all mining life to find our 'gold'... Not all find it. Could it be that perceptive skills come easier/quicker to some than others? Obviously they do; for what reasons might that be? Could some mistakeningly be poking "fool's gold"?

Z, don't 'know' much about you. (Married, kids, parent-home?) But it appears as if you're still panning your way up-steam to the mother lode. Be assured, it's there! When you find it you'll discover your own value is your greatest assett and currency, as a member of Humanity. Not as a member of ANY institution to which you choose to belong--for the right reason... There is no eternal life attached to this choice. THIS life is where you'll find your gold...

Keep mining! Warm regards, Roger

[_Inconceivable]

[How about this: "When panning for gold, one depends on "the law that states"--gold settles to the bottom of the pan, and does not go out with the water. ;-)"

Many thanks, Roger.

I've never thought of it that way. What is a baby doing in my gold pan anyway?

The "throw the baby out with the bathwater" has been thrown at me for quite some time. It has kept me holding on to What? Anyone care to define what they really mean by "throw out", "baby" and "bathwater"?

I like that gold settling law better. I'm sure you are aware of how devastating that analogy would be to any organization that accepted it as doctrine.

Yet it could easily fit with the statement, "Jesus (plus nothing)"

[_Roger Morrison]

"The baby out with the bath water." Goes away back long before in-door plumbing. As some of us po-folk have experienced, the weekly-bath (monthly?:-) started with water heated on the kitchen stove. From there into a tub that, tradition says, first went in Dad--patriarchy--(maybe Mom--chivalry ;-) then each of the X# young-uns. Finally the baby into water anything but clear and clean... If ya've ever fished around in the tub for a bar of soap???

OK, it's a bit of a stretch... But, that's supposedly the origin of the saying. I've had more experience with the gold-pan...

Sluice a lot, to get a little... BUT!!! That's life... Warm regards, Roger

[Guest]

Respectfully Z, you represent a classic case of the effects of cultish indoctrination. Much like the entrapment of a debilitating addiction. 'Suffer' with it, in a sense of knowing it's 'wrong' while at the same time receiving a pay-back creating, dependency--can't live without it--"I might as well be dead." Does this not reveal a state of being at the opposite end of, "...the truth will set YOU free!" You seem to be anything but "free"...

I can, & do, relate to much of what you say re finding "truthS"/(principles-IF-lived-bring-good-stuff) within the BM. This does not automatically make/mean the whole-book is "true". Nor does it endorse Joseph Smith as a divinely led Prophet of "God"; that is dangerously cultish.

Respectfully Roger, you severely misinterpreted my statements. In an earlier post I had mentioned how I felt while I was an athiest. And eventually it was the lack of direction and purpose that came from the idea that death was the end of my existence that made my life hell. This is what I was referring to when I said, "I might as well be dead", because I'd be back where I was, doubting the spirit that led me to beleive in what the Mormon church teaches, and as a consequence doubting the existence of God, and I have a hard time finding meaning in a purely temporary life.

And please don't reduce my struggle for meaning in a godless world to a byproduct of my Mormon upbringing. Its an insult to my intelligence. The meaning of life in the absence of religion is one of the fundamental questions of philosophy and plenty of intelligent men have been driven to madness or suicide in similar struggles. I actively searched for peace in that abyss for years! I read nietzsche, kant, plato, descartes, hume, as well as the greatest works from all major religions. I wasn't just sitting on my ass waiting for an excuse to return to Mormonism. It was the last thought on my mind beleive me. My pain had nothing to do with the absence of Mormon doctrine specifically. Any set of beleifs that gave my life purpose could have filled that void.

And I really must contest the following interpretation of my statements:

Much like the entrapment of a debilitating addiction. 'Suffer' with it, in a sense of knowing it's 'wrong' while at the same time receiving a pay-back creating, dependency--can't live without it--"I might as well be dead."

This does not describe my feelings in any way. If I gave you that impression then I must have mispoken. I am not "suffering" with anything, nor am I struggling against something I know is wrong. I'm simply attempting to take a patient and humble approach. Taking truth as its given to me, and asking God to guide me as I try to find answers to what I don't understand. I'm not fighting anything, I'm not forcing anything.

Seriously Roger it seems like you really want to beleive I'm a brainwashed cultmember. Please give me more credit than that. If there's one thing I know its myself. If you read my posts carefully I think you'll see that I am where I am is the result of careful intellectual and spiritual inquiry with a firm base of rationality, honesty, and critical introspection.

I appreciate your attempts to help me along the path to the "mother load" as you put it. I sincerely do. And I am on my way there. I truly beleive that for the first time in my life I am following the spirit as it was meant to be followed. I beleive that on my current path I have made true connections with God in ways I never had before. As I have tried to make clear I don't know for sure if the LDS church is a perminant part of that path or not. So far its at least been the launching point. But make no mistake I'm following the Spirit, not a dogma.

[_Z]

In other news, I definitely second this statement of Roger's:

"When panning for gold, one depends on "the law that states"--gold settles to the bottom of the pan, and does not go out with the water. ;-)"

I think that was very well said. I really like the imagery of sifting out the truth from all sources and being left with treasures of wisdom. And I'm glad that you (Inconceivable) can find peace and guidance in the principles of the Book of Mormon without a similar beleif in Joseph Smith. I can't say I had the same thing when I was in your posiion. I was still in a "Baby and the bathwater" mindset. But I think this perspective is much better.

Though in this particular instance I would caution you against that kind of confidence in Joseph Smith's guilt (or in anything for that matter). Not because of his connection to the Book of Mormon, but because I once spat his name like a curseword and I can now honestly say I beleive he was a prophet of God. Notice of course that I said "beleive" and not "know". This change was both spiritual and intellectual. We have to be careful to never be so sure of ourselves as to think we can't be proven wrong. And we have to make sure that we're at least open enough that we don't ignore the true influence of the spirit were it to lead us in a direction opposite our current opinions.

I said it before but I'll say it again, I can't emphasize enough that no matter how completely dead positive I was that the case was closed, I have been shown over and over how my understanding was wrong. In a rational, intellectual, and complete way, not just by a silly tingle up my spine. But I had to keep myself open to see the answers.