The Book of Abraham: From Whence was it Derived?

[_Themis]

No. The point is, the story of Abraham historically predfates Smith by several thousands of years. It was a part of history well before Smith was born. However. only a fraction of the story was available to Smith at the time he produced the Book of Abraham. The question then becomes, where did Smith get the rest of the historical story.

We cannot get to any question of where Joseph got any information until you show us what evidence you think he could not know. You wanted to focus on the text and not what I think is the best evidence surrounding the issue, so just wondering if you are going to provide examples for discussion.

[_Beavis Christ]

No. The point is, the story of Abraham historically predfates Smith by several thousands of years. It was a part of history well before Smith was born. However. only a fraction of the story was available to Smith at the time he produced the Book of Abraham. The question then becomes, where did Smith get the rest of the historical story.

We cannot get to any question of where Joseph got any information until you show us what evidence you think he could not know. You wanted to focus on the text and not what I think is the best evidence surrounding the issue, so just wondering if you are going to provide examples for discussion.

The text itself is really all you need to debunk it considering that it has numerous misstatements of fact (i.e. references to Chaldeans in Egypt before they even existed, "Egyptus," as well as the 19th century notions of astronomy), the given Egyptian words in the text do not mean anything, e.g. Enish-go-on-dosh.

A number of rationalizations for these such as those for Jah-oh-eh have been created but they are not persuasive in the least since the Egyptians would not have used such contrived denotations or connotations in the manner that the Book of Abraham uses them, which is an extremely didactic fashion.

[_Buffalo]

Do any of them indicate that Joseph was on to something?

Michael D. Rhodes does.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Sorry, I should have said unbiased, professional Egyptologists.

[_Buffalo]

I can see your point were we talking about known fiction. However, unlike the Book of Mormon, the story of Abraham is demonstrably historical, predating Smith by thousands of years. Because it is historical, then determining how or whether Joseph could have written that history when he may not have been privy to certain key detals of the history, isn't the least bit dubious an approach, but a perfectly reasonable issue to pursue.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_fiction

[_Buffalo]

It appears to be based mainly on a 19th century man's very poor understanding of ancient history.

What was the alleged basis for the 19th century man's understanding of ancient history (poor or otherwise)? In other words, where did he get the ancient history that he supposedly poorly understood?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

The Bible, as well as popular theories of his day as to the origins of black folks.

Not to mention:

Antiquities of the Jews
Philosophy of a Future State
The Six Books of Proclus on the Theology of Plato, Volume 2

[_Buffalo]

The text itself is really all you need to debunk it considering that it has numerous misstatements of fact (i.e. references to Chaldeans in Egypt before they even existed, "Egyptus," as well as the 19th century notions of astronomy), the given Egyptian words in the text do not mean anything, e.g. Enish-go-on-dosh.

A number of rationalizations for these such as those for Jah-oh-eh have been created but they are not persuasive in the least since the Egyptians would not have used such contrived denotations or connotations in the manner that the Book of Abraham uses them, which is an extremely didactic fashion.

The Book of Moses has similar blunders. As bcspace pointed out, Joseph mistakenly made the Canaanites contemporary with Enoch. Also, he mistakenly thought the Canaanites were black, when they were actually Semitic like the Israelis.

[_Themis]

The text itself is really all you need to debunk it considering that it has numerous misstatements of fact (i.e. references to Chaldeans in Egypt before they even existed, "Egyptus," as well as the 19th century notions of astronomy), the given Egyptian words in the text do not mean anything, e.g. Enish-go-on-dosh.

A number of rationalizations for these such as those for Jah-oh-eh have been created but they are not persuasive in the least since the Egyptians would not have used such contrived denotations or connotations in the manner that the Book of Abraham uses them, which is an extremely didactic fashion.

I am not sure Wade wants to focus on the problems the text has for it's historicity, but he clearly thinks there is evidence for things Scholars have discovered about Abraham that was not known to Joseph, and are contained in the Book of Abraham text. If so, I am just waiting for him to provide examples for his discussion.

[_wenglund]

Joseph Smith knew the Bible, Wade.

So? You were questioning the historicity of the story of Abraham, and asked for evidence of its historicity. The Bible is the most obvious evidence.

Please attempt to make an argument.

I did. But, apparenetly it wasn't clear enough for you. Here is a more obvious version of my general argument:

If the story of Abraham was written thousands of years before Joseph Smith was born; and, if the Book of Abraham, produced by Joseph Smith, contains essentially the same story of Abraham written thousands of years ago; then Joseph Smith didn't make up the story. He did not pull it out of the air.

Since the story of Abraham was written thousands of years ago (as evinced by the Bible and hundreds of other sources cited in the linked book), and thus was not made up by Joseph, then he must have gotten the story from somewhere other than his imagination. The question, then, is where did he get the story?

More particularly, if a substantial portions of the story were not contained in English books (like the Bible and Josephus) that Joseph had access to and was known to have read, then where, other than his imagination (since that has been ruled out given that the story predates Smith by thousands of years), did he get the substantial portion of the story?

Joseph's and the LDS Church's answer to that question is that it came by way of "translation" using the gift and power of God.

In posts to follow, I will set forth specific examples from the substantial portion of the Abraham story in the Book of Abraham that isn't contained in the Bible or Josephus or other English material available to Joseph Smith at the time.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

The Bible, as well as popular theories of his day as to the origins of black folks.

Not to mention:

Antiquities of the Jews
Philosophy of a Future State
The Six Books of Proclus on the Theology of Plato, Volume 2

As I begin to point out specific instances of the Abraham story contained in the Book of Abraham, though not in the Bible, then I invite you to not only demonstrate where in your list of texts it shows up, but also that Joseph Smith had access to and read those texts. Fair enough?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Dr. Peterson, in his Ensign article, "News from Antiquity, written Jan., 1994, he said:

The book begins with Abraham “in the land of Ur, of Chaldea.” (Abr. 1:20.) It is obvious that this “Chaldea” was a place under strong Egyptian influence. It was there that Abraham’s own fathers turned aside from worship of the true God to the service of “the god of Pharaoh, king of Egypt.” (Abr. 1:6; facsimile 1, fig. 9.) Apart from a passing reference in Joshua 24:2 [Josh. 24:2], the Bible does not tell of the idolatry of Abraham’s ancestors. However, their worship of false gods and Abraham’s faithfulness in worshipping the true God, as well as his attempts to convert his family, are common themes of many very old Jewish and Christian stories. (See, for instance, Jubilees 11:4, 7–8, 16–17; 12:1–8, 12–14; English translation in James H. Charlesworth, ed., The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, 2 vols. (Garden City: Doubleday, 1983–85), 2:78–80; hereafter referred to as OTP. See also Jasher 9:6–19; 11:15–61; Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 1.7.1; Apocalypse of Abraham 1–8 [OTP, 1:689–93]; Qur’an 6:75; 9:114; 19:42–51, 21:52–68, 26:70–83, 37:84–97; Macaseh Abraham Abinu, in Adolf Jellinek, Bet ha-Midrasch, 6 vols. (Jerusalem: Wahrmann, reprint 1967), 1:26–27; Kebra Nagast 13, in E. A. Wallis Budge, The Book of the Cave of Treasures (London: Religious Tract Society, 1927), pp. 145–47; Louis Ginzberg, Legends of the Jews, 7 vols. (Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society of America, 1967–68), 1:209–15; 5:215.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-