...and still Ash has no evidence supporting Mesoamerica...

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_Morley
_Emeritus
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Re: ...and still Ash has no evidence supporting Mesoamerica...

Post by _Morley »

Obiwan wrote:Actually you would be wrong and another example of your all's LIES of Mormonism.
We don't say this at all.

The Nephites/Lamanites became the political powers of the area.... and this is not surprising given their intelligence, knowledge, skills, etc. Local more primative tribes peoples would have latched on to them, hence the quick increase in numbers. THIS is our "actual" apologetic contrary to your lies.


I love your posts, Obiwan. Though, probably not for you the reasons you would wish.
_Baker
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Re: ...and still Ash has no evidence supporting Mesoamerica...

Post by _Baker »

Obiwan wrote:
truth dancer wrote:Hey Cee....

Yes, Baker is cool. :-)

But, just so you know, Baker's post is pretty much identical to the apologetic response addressing this topic. No, I am not kidding.

:-)

~td~


Actually you would be wrong and another example of your all's LIES of Mormonism.
We don't say this at all.

The Nephites/Lamanites became the political powers of the area.... and this is not surprising given their intelligence, knowledge, skills, etc. Local more primative tribes peoples would have latched on to them, hence the quick increase in numbers. THIS is our "actual" apologetic contrary to your lies.


Obiwan - you live in a bigoted fantasy world and your Jesus builds shopping malls.
"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. ... Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." - Joseph Smith, 1844
_Quasimodo
_Emeritus
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Re: ...and still Ash has no evidence supporting Mesoamerica...

Post by _Quasimodo »

Obiwan wrote:
truth dancer wrote:Hey Cee....

Yes, Baker is cool. :-)

But, just so you know, Baker's post is pretty much identical to the apologetic response addressing this topic. No, I am not kidding.

:-)

~td~


Actually you would be wrong and another example of your all's LIES of Mormonism.
We don't say this at all.

The Nephites/Lamanites became the political powers of the area.... and this is not surprising given their intelligence, knowledge, skills, etc. Local more primative tribes peoples would have latched on to them, hence the quick increase in numbers. THIS is our "actual" apologetic contrary to your lies.


I'm a little confused. Did the Book of Mormon mention existing local tribes living in the new world when the Levantine people arrived?
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
_Blixa
_Emeritus
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Re: ...and still Ash has no evidence supporting Mesoamerica...

Post by _Blixa »

Obiwan wrote:The Nephites/Lamanites became the political powers of the area.... and this is not surprising given their intelligence, knowledge, skills, etc. Local more primative tribes peoples would have latched on to them, hence the quick increase in numbers. THIS is our "actual" apologetic contrary to your lies.


Obiwan, this is nothing more than the traditional European racism about Native Americans. Intelligent and educated contemporary Mormons would be embarrassed by such assertions.

Your condescending retorts that those who disagree with you think like "children" is astonishing in the face of such ignorance.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Re: ...and still Ash has no evidence supporting Mesoamerica...

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Obi,

I'm going to post my comments in purple below.

I wrote,

While many of us grew up with the belief that the Book of Mormon was the story of millions of people covering the Americas, (and numerous islands), the current apologetic assertion is that the Book of Mormon is the story of a few hundred to, at max, 1,000 people. The area this group of folk inhabited is perhaps not more than a few acres, maybe ten or so.

Hope this helps.

:-)

~td~


All that indicates is that you had an understanding of LDS scholarship like that of a child, rather than what Mormonism itself was.

Oh dear... first, I do not claim to be an LDS scholar... just a regular sort of gal who tried to learn and embrace the truth that I was taught. I wonder why God would come up with a "one and only true" religion that requires several PhDs to understand it. Hmmm...

"What Mormonism itself was," what does this mean? Does it mean knowing an unusual, alternative history?

I absolutely agree with you that for much of my life, I did not know much about the, "issues," in Mormonism... you see, I trusted the leaders, had faith the prophet was in communion with Christ, studied the Book of Mormon, and did my best to live in accordance with what I thought was the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Opps... missed the apologists teachings.


Mormonism itself was ALWAYS that a small group of people settled in the America's, (Yes, this I understand and is taught in the Book of Mormon), AND that by "heritage" not solely by DNA all the peoples of the America's and the Islands were of Lehi. (No, I never heard this... EVER). Remember what you Patriarchal Blessing states? Do you really think most Mormons think they are talking LITERAL and DNA there? No they don't, save in special cases, such as those of Aaron or some other unique heritage. Most of us are "adopted", not literal descendent's, at least as the dominate strain. Also, Lehi DNA can still be in all natives of the America's, just not detectable, however enough years have passed for nearly everyone to have Lehi in them literally, not just by heritage alone.

You misunderstand... most members think only the Native Americans, (and various Islanders), ARE literal descendants of Lehi. This is what I was taught in Mormonism. Please do not suggest my life experience is a lie.


Thus, either way, it is not Mormonism that was the problem, it was YOUR ignorant assumptions.
Mormonism ALWAYS taught both a local AND a hemispheric model, because both simply are the truth per doctrine.


LOL!

How about a CFR on this!

Show us where the LDS church officially taught the LTG.. you know, like a prophet sharing this information in conference, or a Sunday School manual that teaches this LTG theory.


Further, the current "apologetic" is only clarifying for people like you who bring up this strawman. It is not denying that there is a hemispheric component also to Mormon doctrine. Of course, to be fair a couple have gone to far in this, but most of us know very well that BOTH models are actual doctine of the Church and always have been. You thinking about the issue like a child does is not our problem.

Both models are doctrine? Really? This is the first I have heard this. Typically I hear the retort that the Book of Mormon’s history is not doctrine. Hmmm… BC, where are you?

Regardless, I find is silly when apologists make this claim. Really, “always have been,” are you kidding? Again… CRF on this one!


One other thing, you are also wrong in your numbers. Yes, the "initial" group that settle was small, and immediately increased to a 100-1000 or so, but the actual "peoples" the locals who aligned themselves with Nephi or the Lamanites numbered WAY MORE. See how you don't get really ANYTHING right or accurate, and then misrepresent us by it?

Oh really... how about you ask Brant Gardner about this? Ask him how many people King Nephi had under his reign?

I think it is you who is not getting much right. ;-)


~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
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