Mormon History and Mormon Belief

[_Simon Belmont]

The problem with your inquiry, Simon, is that you're assuming that the polemical nastiness of Hamblin, Midgley, Gee, et al. is somehow a necessary response to criticism. But it's not. The fact that apologists (as opposed to Mopologists) like Richard Bushman and David Bokovoy are capable of behaving with courtesy and professionalism totally undermines your argument. No one is forcing, e.g., John Gee to accuse Mike Reed of sloppy scholarship. No one twisted Will Schryver's arm in order to get him to let loose a slew of misogynist insults. No one coerced Louis Midgley into uttering homophobic slurs at the UTLM bookstore. The fact of the matter is that you cannot blame the critics for the apologists' bad behavior, regardless of what kind of propter hoc argument you try to cobble together.

You're right. It is not proper to blame anyone for anyone else's behavior. We are all our own autonomous agents, but we can be influenced. Ultimately, though, each individual is responsible for his or her behavior, in my opinion.

But I am more interested in ideas, not individuals. Here's what I am getting at: Criticism (both respectful and nasty/vengeful à la Ed Decker) created the need for apologetics, and a subset of apologetics is what you refer to as polemically nasty apologetics. So, my question really amounts to this: what if there were no "first cause" of nasty criticism?

And granted, the Fist Vision includes what some Christians view as criticism, but does that really necessitate 180 years of attacks?

[Guest]

From 2003 to very recently I worked at the US Army’s Yuma Proving Ground where I participated in the development and testing of combat automotive systems, both wheeled and tracked. As was required by my former occupation, I was (and technically still am) certified to handle high explosives, both weapons- and demolitions-grade.

Also spent some time at the Yuma Proving Ground (in August no less). We were testing a full function on-board gas turbine health monitoring system for the M1 Abrams main battle tank. In the end, the under armor real estate we needed for our system went for other things. As an old tanker, what I got the biggest kick out of in Yuma was the collection of Eastern Block armored vehicles they had (have?) there.

Hey, now there is an idea for an Avatar.

[_Corpsegrinder]

Ah...fond memories of Yuma in the summer. It's not Hell but you can see it from there.



Oh no, I just realized that pic is classified! Boy, am I in trouble now!!!

I spent about six years working with Strykers, mainly on the mortar carrier variant.

[_DrW]

Ah...fond memories of Yuma in the summer. It's not Hell but you can see it from there.



Oh no, I just realized that pic is classified! Boy, am I in trouble now!!!

I spent about six years working with Strykers, mainly on the mortar carrier variant.

CG,

From his statements on other threads, it seems pretty clear that DCP will not be coming back to clean up his mess here.

So I will just thank you for your service to your country, and let you know that it never got as high as 127 while I was at Yuma (but I have seen it 130 Degrees F plus at Camp Doha in Kuwait - again while involved with M1 tanks).
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by the way, if you ever have to go to battle in the the Kingdom or Kuwait, I hope it is in an M1. In the open desert, the Striker's "dash and cover" doctrine becomes highly theoretical.

[_stemelbow]

So I will just thank you for your service to your country, and let you know that it never got as high as 127 while I was at Yuma (but I have seen it 130 Degrees F plus at Camp Doha in Kuwait - again while involved with M1 tanks).
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by the way, if you ever have to go to battle in the the Kingdom or Kuwait, I hope it is in an M1. In the open desert, the Striker's "dash and cover" doctrine becomes highly theoretical.

Heya DrW,

many here have claimed, essentially, that if a person is caught in a lie that means they are forever to be known as a liar. I hope they are far more charitable to those who they have no bias against, like you.

In summer, average daily high temperatures range from 42 to 46 °C (107.6 to 114.8 °F); the highest ever temperature recorded in Kuwait was 53.5 °C (128.3 °F) at Kuwait International Airport on August 3, 2011.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Kuwait

Do you currently live in Kuwait?

[_Nightlion]

However, I’m still very interested to learn what leads you to believe that high-rise buildings are pre-wired for instant demolition…if I understand your post correcty.

Okay, so you got to maintain these charges. Probably a Haleburten contract. Imagine the cost!
The evidence that they are pre-wired is because 9-11 shows precisely that. Perhaps insurance companies have required it to protect buildings from one another. What threatens an eighty storied building more than the 120 storied building next door?

[Guest]

So I will just thank you for your service to your country, and let you know that it never got as high as 127 while I was at Yuma (but I have seen it 130 Degrees F plus at Camp Doha in Kuwait - again while involved with M1 tanks).
-------------
by the way, if you ever have to go to battle in the the Kingdom or Kuwait, I hope it is in an M1. In the open desert, the Striker's "dash and cover" doctrine becomes highly theoretical.

Heya DrW,

many here have claimed, essentially, that if a person is caught in a lie that means they are forever to be known as a liar. I hope they are far more charitable to those who they have no bias against, like you.

In summer, average daily high temperatures range from 42 to 46 °C (107.6 to 114.8 °F); the highest ever temperature recorded in Kuwait was 53.5 °C (128.3 °F) at Kuwait International Airport on August 3, 2011.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Kuwait

Do you currently live in Kuwait?

Hey Stem,

Sort of disappointed that you didn't at least search Google for temperatures at Camp Doha before accusing me of being less than truthful. If you would have taken the next logical step in your quest for knowledge (e.g. Google search string = 130 degrees Camp Doha), you would have found the following on the GlobalSecurity.org website describing conditions at Camp Doha:

.... blowing sand, 130-plus degree temperatures, and <snip>

Underlining is mine. The website URL is:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/intrinsic_action.htm

I do not live in Kuwait. I have spent time there however, including lecturing at KISR and working on military offset deals for Sikorsky and Pratt & Whitney.

While I do not doubt that the highest recorded temperature at the Airport in Kuwait was 128.3 degrees F, you need to understand that official temperatures at airports are obtained on the inside of covered, vented weather stations normally located well above ground level.

Pilots are the most important consumers of airport met office data and need to know what the temperature, barometric pressure, relative humidity and wind speed and direction are in the air through which they will be making their approach. All of these factors figure into the airspeed and control surface configuration they must maintain on approach, given the gross weight of their aircraft.

Temperature, pressure and humidity determine density altitude, and the pilot who does not have this information from the airport weather station runs the risk of premature contact with the ground. In other words, pilots and airport met stations are not that interested in conditions very close to the ground. They need to know about the air the pilots will be flying through above the ground.

If you have ever lived in a sand desert, you will understand that, on sunny days, there can be quite an air temperature gradient with increased height above the ground. The higher one goes, the cooler it is. And this gradient can become quite steep at heights below a meter or two.

So, as shown in the above passage, the outside temperatures at Camp Doha, to which many military personnel are exposed near ground level in the summer time can, and often do, exceed 130 degrees F.

And unlike Yuma, it ain't "dry" heat.
_______________

ETA: No apologies needed, Stem.

I think you are basically an honest guy and probably meant well.

[_Pollypinks]

That cat might be considered a historian at UU, or wherever he professes to teach, but historian he ain't. He blamed simple fallibilities on Mormon history's questions. I guess some people would rather die than admit that their belief system has them by the nuts.

[_Socrates]

And granted, the Fist Vision includes what some Christians view as criticism, but does that really necessitate 180 years of attacks?

Are you suggesting that the First Vision is passé or now irrelevant, and so its claim that God pronounced all other faiths as false no longer counts?

Do you not consider that claimed pronouncement to be a criticism? What can be more directly a swipe at a religion but that its claims are not true?

If you continue your hedging and do not clearly admit that the First Vision is in fact criticism of all other religions, what do you find about Ed Decker's statements about the LDS Church to be mean, nasty criticism?

[_Simon Belmont]

Are you suggesting that the First Vision is passé or now irrelevant, and so its claim that God pronounced all other faiths as false no longer counts?

God did not pronounce all other faiths as false. But, in this hypothetical, I am granting that he did (because some uninformed critics think that is the case). In your mind, that deserved 180+ years of torment, criticism, and anti-Mormonism?

Do you not consider that claimed pronouncement to be a criticism? What can be more directly a swipe at a religion but that its claims are not true?

If you continue your hedging and do not clearly admit that the First Vision is in fact criticism of all other religions, what do you find about Ed Decker's statements about the LDS Church to be mean, nasty criticism?

My point is simply this: Don't get angry at apologists for behaviors critics wrote the book on.