In Mormonism the earth IS 10,000 years old...

[_Drifting]

Drifting,

Finally found the GD Lesson Manual online. However, unlike when I taught GD, teachers are now apparently allowed to give the lessons in any order they wish.

So my question for you is: Do you know which lesson (Title or Number) it was that gave rise to all of the scriptural cosmology and natural history described in the OP?

Thanks.

It was lesson 46.

[_DrW]

Drifting,

Finally found the GD Lesson Manual online. However, unlike when I taught GD, teachers are now apparently allowed to give the lessons in any order they wish.

So my question for you is: Do you know which lesson (Title or Number) it was that gave rise to all of the scriptural cosmology and natural history described in the OP?

Thanks.

It was lesson 46.

Great.

Thank you.

(I'm sure that BCSpace will thank you as well.)

[_DrW]

BCSPace,

With some kind help from Drifting, below in quotes is an excerpt from the Lesson that Drifting was referring to in the OP.

You know what? For the life of me, I cannot see where he made a mistake in scriptural interpretation, lesson manual understanding, or math. Really.
'
What say you?

3. The seven seals in the book of Revelation
The following chart provides additional information about each of the seven seals. The chart may also be useful in understanding the structure of the book of Revelation. Note that events are listed chronologically, according to the time periods in which they occurred. They should not be confused with the dispensations of the gospel.

First seal The creation and fall of Adam and Eve; the ministry of Enoch and the translation of his city into heaven (Revelation 6:1–2).

Second seal
Noah and the Flood (Revelation 6:3–4).

Third seal Ministries of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Moses; the Exodus; the period of reign by judges (Revelation 6:5–6).

Fourth seal The period of reign by kings; the division of the kingdom; the conquering of the kingdoms (Revelation 6:7–8).

Fifth seal The birth, ministry, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus Christ; the establishment of his Church and the ministry of the Apostles; martyrdom of the Apostles; the Apostasy (Revelation 6:9–11).

Sixth seal Continuation of the Apostasy; restoration of the gospel through the Prophet Joseph Smith; signs of the times manifest (Revelation 6:12–17; 7:1–8).

Seventh seal Wars, plagues, and desolation; Second Coming of the Lord (Revelation 8:1–19:21). Millennium of peace (Revelation 20:1–6). Satan loosed for a season, the last great battle, and the final judgment (Revelation 20:7–15).

After the seventh seal
The earth is celestialized (Revelation 21:1–22:6).

[_moksha]

Dr. W, hope this image might be of visual assistance:

[Guest]

Dr. W, hope this image might be of visual assistance:

Moksha,

Thank you for the visual. It really helps clear up a lot of things for me relative to the seven seals in Revelations.

Luckily for you, John was apparently not talking about the kind that eat Penguins of Peace.

[_Themis]

BCSPace,

With some kind help from Drifting, below in quotes is an excerpt from the Lesson that Drifting was referring to in the OP.

You know what? For the life of me, I cannot see where he made a mistake in scriptural interpretation, lesson manual understanding, or math. Really.
'
What say you?

At this point Bcspace strategy is to leave the thread after evidence is presented showing him wrong in hopes that the thread will die out more quickly. I have seen him and a few others do this over and over again.

[_subgenius]

Wow, the cynics are still deeply entrenched i see.
Let us dismantle them (again) slowly so they may be able to follow (for i realize that they can only handle a diet of milk at this time):

1. It is clear that D&C 77 refers to God's dealing with man under the present time period (the collection of dispensations of the past several thousand years), and does not say anything about the time of the Creation or age of the earth, or even the antiquity of other humans.
"temporal existence"

2. The 7 seals clearly refer to things of God's "economy"...a term not seen anywhere else in the scriptures. Most educated people understand this theological term to be applied towards the "divine management of human affairs", not affairs of the earth.

3. The 7 seals use of economy also coincides with "continuance" which is not used in terms of totality in duration but rather as progress from earlier stages. Reference its usage in Ps. 139:16, Is. 64:5, and Rom. 2:7.

4. Revelations has never been considered to be a text of chronology, it can be viewed as separate 'scenes" and this is a widely accepted view.

5. Mormon doctrine is not as interpreted by the likes of "Drifting" or "DrW", most often they conclude incorrectly and cherry-pick their way to a distorted view, for which the rely on cynicism, bitterness, and sarcasm to convey it as "truth".

"...In these respects we differ from the Christian world, for our religion will not clash with or contradict the facts of science in any particular....how long it's been organized is not for me to say, and I do not care anything about it. As to the Bible account of the creation we may say that the Lord gave it to Moses. If we understood the process of creation there would be no mystery about it, it would be all reasonable and plain, for there is no mystery except to the ignorant."
Brigham Young - Discourses of Brigham Young

"..the millions of years that it took to prepare the physical world.."
David O McKay - October 1956

"[the book of Abraham indicates]this system was 2.55 billion years old"
William Phelps - 1845
...etc

6. The word yom appears repeatedly in the Hebrew Scriptures with reference to a period longer than 12 or 24 hours.

7. There exists no official church doctrine as to how long the earth existed before Adam. And no doctrine exists that concludes how old the earth is or how old it could be.


Now
to those who consider that human intervention is not a valid form of "evolution" i can concede that you are no longer serious about the discussion of bears, horses, bugs, or any of this.
The glaring point is that with the list of bears no definitive timeline can be determined, the poster relies on tomfoolery, simply putting a list together and hoping that another simple-minded reader will look at it and say "gee, that is a big list, surely it takes millions of years to create 15 different types of bears, yup, millions sounds about right"
...no one knows how "long" it takes to diverge any number of species of bears from any other number of bears, especially throughout history. If 10,000 years is not satisfactory, who is to say that 50,000 is? or that 1 million is? or that 1.376 million is the least amount of time to get that list of bears?

Consider the Tarsier, or the Hyacinth Macaw, Bearded Reedling, etc...monotypic taxons which defy the logic purported in the "list of bears".
Whether humans intervened in the north american horse list or not has no relevance, the point is that several breeds can be created in a relatively short period of time. That is an actual fact. To isolate human activity, or any other notion, from the unsupported insistence that evolution must be a "slow" process is rather ridiculous and arrogant.
I mean we just discovered 208 new species in one year
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45641405/ns ... vS9CNQV00M
With species coming in and out existence and in/out of our discovery how can one not reasonably infer that species can diversify and disappear in relatively short periods of time. The amount of species that have been in existence is likely unfathomable no matter what protracted timeline one wants to put them on.

And yes, the horses listed on my list "evolved" in 500 years.

*smack*

[_Drifting]

Wow, the cynics are still deeply entrenched i see.
Let us dismantle them (again) slowly so they may be able to follow (for i realize that they can only handle a diet of milk at this time):

1. It is clear that D&C 77 refers to God's dealing with man under the present time period (the collection of dispensations of the past several thousand years), and does not say anything about the time of the Creation or age of the earth, or even the antiquity of other humans.
"temporal existence"

2. The 7 seals clearly refer to things of God's "economy"...a term not seen anywhere else in the scriptures. Most educated people understand this theological term to be applied towards the "divine management of human affairs", not affairs of the earth.

3. The 7 seals use of economy also coincides with "continuance" which is not used in terms of totality in duration but rather as progress from earlier stages. Reference its usage in Ps. 139:16, Is. 64:5, and Rom. 2:7.

4. Revelations has never been considered to be a text of chronology, it can be viewed as separate 'scenes" and this is a widely accepted view.

5. Mormon doctrine is not as interpreted by the likes of "Drifting" or "DrW", most often they conclude incorrectly and cherry-pick their way to a distorted view, for which the rely on cynicism, bitterness, and sarcasm to convey it as "truth".

"...In these respects we differ from the Christian world, for our religion will not clash with or contradict the facts of science in any particular....how long it's been organized is not for me to say, and I do not care anything about it. As to the Bible account of the creation we may say that the Lord gave it to Moses. If we understood the process of creation there would be no mystery about it, it would be all reasonable and plain, for there is no mystery except to the ignorant."
Brigham Young - Discourses of Brigham Young

"..the millions of years that it took to prepare the physical world.."
David O McKay - October 1956

"[the book of Abraham indicates]this system was 2.55 billion years old"
William Phelps - 1845
...etc

6. The word yom appears repeatedly in the Hebrew Scriptures with reference to a period longer than 12 or 24 hours.

7. There exists no official church doctrine as to how long the earth existed before Adam. And no doctrine exists that concludes how old the earth is or how old it could be.


Now
to those who consider that human intervention is not a valid form of "evolution" i can concede that you are no longer serious about the discussion of bears, horses, bugs, or any of this.
The glaring point is that with the list of bears no definitive timeline can be determined, the poster relies on tomfoolery, simply putting a list together and hoping that another simple-minded reader will look at it and say "gee, that is a big list, surely it takes millions of years to create 15 different types of bears, yup, millions sounds about right"
...no one knows how "long" it takes to diverge any number of species of bears from any other number of bears, especially throughout history. If 10,000 years is not satisfactory, who is to say that 50,000 is? or that 1 million is? or that 1.376 million is the least amount of time to get that list of bears?

Consider the Tarsier, or the Hyacinth Macaw, Bearded Reedling, etc...monotypic taxons which defy the logic purported in the "list of bears".
Whether humans intervened in the north american horse list or not has no relevance, the point is that several breeds can be created in a relatively short period of time. That is an actual fact. To isolate human activity, or any other notion, from the unsupported insistence that evolution must be a "slow" process is rather ridiculous and arrogant.
I mean we just discovered 208 new species in one year
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45641405/ns ... vS9CNQV00M
With species coming in and out existence and in/out of our discovery how can one not reasonably infer that species can diversify and disappear in relatively short periods of time. The amount of species that have been in existence is likely unfathomable no matter what protracted timeline one wants to put them on.

And yes, the horses listed on my list "evolved" in 500 years.

*smack*

Please stop smacking yourself, you'll bruise.

Subgenius, which of the following statements are not taught as literally true by the Church?

The Church specifies that the first man Adam fell circa 4,000 bc.
The Church specifies that Adam was created on the 6th day.
The Church specifies that one of Gods days is 1,000 years.

[Guest]

5. Mormon doctrine is not as interpreted by the likes of "Drifting" or "DrW", most often they conclude incorrectly and cherry-pick their way to a distorted view, for which the rely on cynicism, bitterness, and sarcasm to convey it as "truth".

It would be much more honest and accurate to say that Mormon doctrine is not as interpreted by the likes of "Drifting" or "DrW" because a direct and reasonable interpretation of Mormon doctrine would lead to an inordinate number of internal inconsistencies, contradictions and unsupportable conclusions showing Mormonism to be a prime example of a "make it up as you go along" religion.

Therefore, Mormonism must be read in a nuanced and flexible manner and should be understood in a light (whatever that may be) that leads to the least amount of internal contradiction. And if you still can't make it work, logically or morally, just hang on a bit longer and the prophets will change it.

"...In these respects we differ from the Christian world, for our religion will not clash with or contradict the facts of science in any particular....how long it's been organized is not for me to say, and I do not care anything about it. As to the Bible account of the creation we may say that the Lord gave it to Moses. If we understood the process of creation there would be no mystery about it, it would be all reasonable and plain, for there is no mystery except to the ignorant."
Brigham Young - Discourses of Brigham Young

This from the man who taught Adam-God, Blood Atonement and bilked members out of hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars and whose overall prophecies and doctrine the Church is running away from as fast as possible. I and many others have already shown on these boards, time and time again, with concrete examples, that Mormonism is in stark and direct conflict with science, and it is only getting worse.

"[the book of Abraham indicates]this system was 2.55 billion years old"
William Phelps - 1845

I note the parenthesis. Perhaps you could provide a a reference. Some insight to this heresy against what is taught elsewhere in the PoGP and the Old Testament would be interesting.

The fact is that LDS Church leaders have been, and continue to be, all over the map on the age of the Earth. They know that the LDS Church and Christian religions in general are dead wrong on this, but seem unwilling to admit it. For to do so would bring house of cards that is their scripture, foundational truth claims and doctrine crashing down.

[_canpakes]

Now
to those who consider that human intervention is not a valid form of "evolution" i can concede that you are no longer serious about the discussion of bears, horses, bugs, or any of this.

Lol...

SubG, if you are trying to slip that statement under the radar, then it would appear that the only person here who is not 'serious' about the topic of evolutionary changes/timelines/breeding differences is... you.

The point isn't really if horse breeding represents evolution to you or not. Just because you decided to list 25 or so breeds of horses that have seen active intervention from human breeders in the last 500 years this does not advance your argument. The point is that the timeline necessary to have critters evolve into different forms via a natural path seems to require more years than has passed since Noah's time, given that aside from the few examples of critters who've been helped along that path by mankind's foray into selective breeding, we haven't otherwise seen anything else naturally evolve in any significant way at all throughout the entirety of recorded history.

You will need to explain how we have a million different insects known without human intervention, and let us know how your timeline seems to work out for you in light of this. Or let us know if you think that Noah carried all of those types on his boat.

Give a try to answering that. All this dodging about makes for a wicked good dance but it isn't helping to make your case in the least.