Christ says - Being Mormon is not essential for eternal life

[_bcspace]

I take it that you do not view Jesus as a revolutionary.

For his time he was. The Jews of the day often mistook him for a political revolutionary. In today's Christian world, not so much, but more and more as the world moves away from him (liberalism, socialism, humanism, etc). But ultimately all he did was restore truth that had been extant before.

[_ldsfaqs]

ldsfaqs.

You do not seem to be familiar with the reality of what Mormon Missionaries do (noting that, if you served a mission that was predominantly service focussed, you are the exception).

Speak for yourself. I'm active in the Church and associate often with the Missionary's.
If you had read my post, you would know that there is all kinds of "service", not simply feeding the poor etc.

I think I am correct in stating that the proportion of service related exhortation in the 'Preach My Gospel' manual amounts to two pages out of the hundreds dedicated to encouraging Missionaries to proselytise.
I think I am correct in stating that the proportion of time Mission Presidents spend discussing and measuring the service done by Missionaries, is dwarfed by the amount spent on looking at numbers of baptisms and teaching appointments.

We are an organized religion, thus yes, we believe in efficiency, tracking, etc.
Further, that is the purpose of a Missionary, is the preach the Gospel. That is one method of serving another.

I am saying that the Church has its priorities in opposition to the message of the Good Samaritan - that in terms of achieving eternal life it was more important to be 'humanitarian' than it was to be a member of a particular religious denomination. That principle is not displayed nor taught by the Church.

You are clearly confused..... Missionary work is not simply about bringing "glory to SELF", it's about serving others. It's about changing lives.

The Good Samaritan story was about that persons "OWN" PERSONAL salvation, not that of the person he helped. Helping others when they need help is only the beginning first step in service to others. Helping others when they can use the help is also important, such as sharing the Gospel with them. It's great and important to give that man a fish...... But it's also important to teach that man to fish. Great, you were a good Samaritan and lifted someone off the ground. That's great. Now wouldn't it be greater if you taught that man how to BE a Good Samaritan himself?

Great, someone lifted me off the ground...... But would I and those around me benefit even more if I also knew the principles that caused that man to lift me off the ground?

See, helping someone to be seen of Christ and "special" as YOU are looking at it is selfish....
Being a Missionary is self"less".....
Actually, both acts are selfless acts..... Both have purpose and value to God.

I believe that the gay, tattooed, smoking, drinking, fornicating, non Mormon's or ex Mormon's who spend a proportion of their time being good neighbourly and regularly helping at the homeless shelter, will have a better chance than most (more than 50%) Church members of achieving eternal life.

Simply not true..... Christ was clear, that ONLY those who kept the Commandments were actually his. He was clear when he said, that those who do all kinds of "good", but in their hearts and actions don't follow are not actually his. He will say I never knew you.

Obviously, ones actions and heart good and bad will be put on a scale, but if you think the fornicator and wicked who does good sometimes will compare to the righteous Mormon who does good also sometimes, you are going to be sorely mistaken. This is not to say there aren't good people out there who are really better people than the Mormon, that's LDS theology, but that's not the same as being wicked and because you also do a little good you are going to be justified before God. He will say he never knew you.

Note: that is only my opinion based on my interpretation of Christs message in the parable of the Good Samaritan and my observations of Mormonism and Mormon members that I have seen. Including myself.

In fact, I will go as far as to say that if you spent the time helping the homeless that you spend on Home or Visiting Teaching that you will improve your chances in Christs eyes. This change in balance is something that I am now going to seriously try to put into practice.

Well, your interpretation is severely lacking. There is some beginning truth too it, but then you go too far.

Home and Visiting Teaching is just as important as helping the homeless.
Those you care for in the Church are your brothers and sisters. Is your own brother and sister less important to care for than the homeless person down the street? I don't think so. Your first priority is to your family, to the Faith, to your God. God has directly commanded that we care for our brethren. Thus, if you think it's more valuable and important to give a homeless man a fish once in a while, compared to teaching your brother and sister how to fish, then you are in error. We are to do ALL good that we are able..... It's good you want to help others more, but you are taking things to far in your judgments of the Church. You clearly don't know your scriptures as much as you think.

[_Drifting]

Ldsfaqs, thank you for responding to my post.
You make some interesting points that I will consider and respond to.

In the meantime, on the subject of full time Missionaries. You must surely concede that at least 90% of their 'work' time is spent on preaching?

[_ldsfaqs]

Ldsfaqs, thank you for responding to my post.
You make some interesting points that I will consider and respond to.

You're welcome.

In the meantime, on the subject of full time Missionaries. You must surely concede that at least 90% of their 'work' time is spent on preaching?

Of course, that is there calling. The are called to gather the wheat from the tares.
Remember, this also is the Word of God.
I appreciate you're wanting to do more of service, and see the value of it, but again, you can't cherry pick the Word of God.

The most basic principle we are speaking of is not simply the Good Samaritain story.
The most basic principle we are speaking of is that the 2nd greatest commandment is for a man to LOVE and "lay down his life for his brother". The 1st commandment being to love and lay down our lives for God.

Now, the Good Samaritan story is an "example" of what it means to "lay down ones life for his brother". There are in fact many ways in the Gospel to lay down ones life. They can do it literally in death to save another's life such as in war against evil, they can do as the Good Samaritan, they can be a Missionary, they can Home Teach, they can stand against evil and for good in all places and at all times. There are so many ways to serve, to lay down our lives.

The Good Samaritan story had more than one lesson to it, it had two purposes. As I mentioned previously, it had the purpose of giving an example of what service was which is the 2nd Great Commandment, but it also had the purpose of showing that no matter who you are, in the Church or not, if your heart and service is of God, then you also are His, and shall have Eternal Life.

While knowing Truth and the Gospel is important, what is important to the individual soul is what he does in his heart and actions, that is the Gospel being in and of him. Christ didn't say by their Intellectual views shall you know them, he said "by their fruits shall ye know them". He said, Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

This by the way is one reason I condemn anti-mormonism. Anti-mormonism does not bring forth good fruit. As it says in the next verse....

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

[_Drifting]

Ldsfaqs, thank you for responding to my post.
You make some interesting points that I will consider and respond to.

You're welcome.

In the meantime, on the subject of full time Missionaries. You must surely concede that at least 90% of their 'work' time is spent on preaching?

Of course, that is there calling. The are called to gather the wheat from the tares.
Remember, this also is the Word of God.
I appreciate you're wanting to do more of service, and see the value of it, but again, you can't cherry pick the Word of God.

The most basic principle we are speaking of is not simply the Good Samaritain story.

Actually, on this thread, the Good Samaritan parable is exactly what we are talking about.
Christ was asked to explain what one should do to gain eternal life.
He could have said anything, He could have given a parable about being baptised into His Church and then going about preaching the Gospel.
He didn't.
Instead the answer he gave explicitly put religious denomination to one side in favour of humanitarian actions. The parable is clear that, in terms of achieving eternal life, Humanitarian action is more important than which religion you join.

This means that, in order to be in line with Christs teaching in the Good Samaritan, Church missionaries should spend more time doing service than asking people to join the Church. In fact it is more vital that people do humanitarian good deeds than it is for them to join the Church.

It's not the missionaries fault, but clearly they don't follow the guidance given in this parable.

[_ldsfaqs]

Actually, on this thread, the Good Samaritan parable is exactly what we are talking about.
Christ was asked to explain what one should do to gain eternal life.
He could have said anything, He could have given a parable about being baptised into His Church and then going about preaching the Gospel.
He didn't.
Instead the answer he gave explicitly put religious denomination to one side in favour of humanitarian actions. The parable is clear that, in terms of achieving eternal life, Humanitarian action is more important than which religion you join.

LDS know very well that humanitarian action is more important that which Church you join.
It's like I said above..... Humanitarian action comes in many forms, and Missionary Work is one of them.

Further, you are misrepresenting the truth..... Just because he said that "service" of our fellow beings is the most important thing, you are trying to falsely claim that he didn't also say OTHER THINGS such as missionary work was also important, when in fact he DID. You cherry pick the scripture, only wanting to follow the command YOU want to follow, when Christ also commanded Missionary Work. Guess what, God is going to know you did this, and you are NOT going to be justified before God for your "good works".

Remember the principle? ONLY those "who do the Will of the Father" are actually his. He said you can do all the wonderful works you want, but he's going to say he never knew you. Do you really think you are "doing his will" when you cherry pick what part of his gospel and commandments you want to follow? Nope.... you are sorely mistaken, and will be at judgment.

This means that, in order to be in line with Christs teaching in the Good Samaritan, Church missionaries should spend more time doing service than asking people to join the Church. In fact it is more vital that people do humanitarian good deeds than it is for them to join the Church.

It's not the missionaries fault, but clearly they don't follow the guidance given in this parable.

Nope.... You misrepresent and cherry pick the truth, see above.
The principle is SERVICE..... Missionary work is humanitarian. It is SERVICE which will give Eternal Life. Christ gave an "example" of service..... The Good Samaritan story isn't the only way to "serve" others.

You are in serious error.

[_Drifting]

Nope.... You misrepresent and cherry pick the truth, see above.
The principle is SERVICE..... Missionary work is humanitarian. It is SERVICE which will give Eternal Life. Christ gave an "example" of service..... The Good Samaritan story isn't the only way to "serve" others.

You are in serious error.

I didn't say the parable of the Good Samaritan was the only way to serve others. I said that when asked what action was needed to gain Eternal life, Christ responded with what He felt was the most important one - humanitarian aid, not preaching about which religious sect a person should join.

If 'LDS' take humanitarian aid more seriously than preaching which religion to join why are there:
8,000 humanitarian missionaries and 55,000 preaching religion missionaries?
$1.3 billion spent in humanitarian aid in 26 years and twice that spent on one shopping mall project in SLC?

Actions speak louder than words and in that respect, the serious error falls to the LDS Church in not setting the example that Christ set.

I know you won't accept that and will say I am cherry picking or lying or being an anti-Mormon. But hey, look around you. Do you see any large bags of bothered?

[_ldsfaqs]

And like I said..... Your brain cannot comprehend that "humanitarian aid" or SERVICE which was the principle Christ was teaching, refers to MORE things than simply "giving food", lifting a hurt man on the ground, etc.

Missionary SERVICE..... is also service. Don't blame me for your lack of intellectual comprehension of the fullness of the Gospel.

And also like I've already said, I've quoted other scripture which clearly debunks your interpretation.
If "service" in the way you look at it, alone, is all that was required, Christ specifically said he never knew you. Doing the Will of the Father isn't simply service. Thus, your interpretation is wrong, and you do as other Christians do in their cherry picking doctrine, creating their religions, ignoring other scriptures which debunk such interpretations.

Anyway, enjoy.... I've said it as clear as I can. Do all the "works" you want..... Christ will say he never knew you. He said that also you know.

[_Drifting]

Do all the "works" you want..... Christ will say he never knew you. He said that also you know.

I would like to see the scripture you are refering to as it seems to contradict what Christ says in the parable of the Good Samaritan.

[_ldsfaqs]

Matthew 7:21+

Those who seek to do the Will of the Father in all things, striving to follow ALL the commandments of God, they are those who will be justified.

Remember, the Second Great Commandment (service to others) is only one of the commandments, not the only one. But again, the key is "service", not simply your version of humanitarian aid, whatever that is. Further, it's the most important thing other than loving God, again, most important doesn't translate into "only important".

I really don't know why people love creating their OWN religions....
The Restored Gospel is wise, balanced, etc., and we and our generations only benefit by following it, and much more so that other "ways/paths".