Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

[_Themis]

Was barley in pre-columbian america? Yes or no? Seem pretty clear the answer is yes.

To the simple minded it may seem that way. Reality is far more complex. When and where are barley found and used. These are just some of the questions one should be asking.

Yes.

Yes to every experience has to be interpreted, or yes to most memebrs have never had anything close to God appearing to them, or yes you have seen God.

You are incorrect. I left Mormonism after my mission in fact. I also like the statement "The church does not teach" such-and-such. Like you would know?

To what did I say the church does not teach this. I never said the church teaches one cannot see God, only that most will not, and that the HG is what members should depend on. That you don't know this stuff makes me wonder if you were ever very active let alone gone on a mission.

Seems like the scriptures seem to teach something completely different and early church history point at something completely different. These people are seeing angels and God, but you seem to feel that has changed in some way? Or maybe (just a theory), you never understood a thing about the gospel and what "real" spirtual experiences are in the first place?

I believe reading somewhere that some where wondering why these amazing expereinces where no longer happening like they did when Joseph was around. I have been active believing most of my life and served and prayed about many tings. I guess God just didn't like me enough to say hello. :)

Really? You've seen God have you?

Interesting that you equate seeking God must also mean one has to see God.

What does God want us to believe and do?

I know people who are very confident that God has appeared to them and told them things you would probably not agree with. Are they deluded or you delude, or maybe both.

Yes, actually I do. Ex-mormons have lists or reasons they don't believe in the church. They don't like this or that about the Book of Mormon. They don't like this or that about the history. They don't like this or that about the doctrine of policies. But when you take a hatchet to the thicket of their thinking about the church, it turns out in almost every case - they simply do not know or believe in God.

Like has nothing to do with it. It's about evaluating the evidence with an open mind, willing to accept where it leads, even if you don't like the results.

[_Tobin]

To the simple minded it may seem that way. Reality is far more complex. When and where are barley found and used. These are just some of the questions one should be asking.

That's just double-talk for "I don't want to concede that the answer is 'yes'".

Yes to every experience has to be interpreted, or yes to most memebrs have never had anything close to God appearing to them, or yes you have seen God.

Yes, yes, and yes - or more succinctly, "Yes".

To what did I say the church does not teach this. I never said the church teaches one cannot see God, only that most will not, and that the HG is what members should depend on. That you don't know this stuff makes me wonder if you were ever very active let alone gone on a mission.

Well, I've answered that question and experiencing God in some real way is essential to being Mormon. Otherwise, you are wasting your time and might as well spend your believing in the tooth-fairy.

I believe reading somewhere that some where wondering why these amazing expereinces where no longer happening like they did when Joseph was around. I have been active believing most of my life and served and prayed about many tings. I guess God just didn't like me enough to say hello. :)

I've answered this in a prior post as well. It isn't a matter of what you try to do or believe. It is what you are. What are you doing now? I think you have your answer as to why the Lord does not speak to you.

Interesting that you equate seeking God must also mean one has to see God.

I absolutely do. Otherwise, how can you really know if you aren't deluding yourself?

I know people who are very confident that God has appeared to them and told them things you would probably not agree with. Are they deluded or you delude, or maybe both.

They should do what God tells them to do and believe. The point is to start the conversation.

Like has nothing to do with it. It's about evaluating the evidence with an open mind, willing to accept where it leads, even if you don't like the results.

That has nothing to do with it. If you know God exists, what are you going to debate and justify to yourself? For example, most people know the Sun exists. They don't usually go around all day evaluating that means to them.

[_SteelHead]

Sweet Tobin! You too? Could you describe him for me? I just want to make sure we are hanging with the same diety.

[_Runtu]

Sweet Tobin! You too? Could you describe him for me? I just want to make sure we are hanging with the same diety.

As long as you didn't get the same answer that Tobin did, it's obvious that it wasn't God.

[_SteelHead]

Well the god I roll with is super cool, teaches people to be excellent with one another, to love one another, to be humble and not arrogant.

So it sounds like a different cat, but I was just checking.

[_Themis]

That's just double-talk for "I don't want to concede that the answer is 'yes'".

I take it you are not interested in learning anything on this issue. That's fine.

Yes, yes, and yes - or more succinctly, "Yes".

Thank you.

Well, I've answered that question and experiencing God in some real way is essential to being Mormon.

Could you quote where the church teaches that experiencing God is necessary for one to be Mormon. I must have missed it.

Otherwise, you are wasting your time and might as well spend your believing in the tooth-fairy.

People tend to believe what they have been taught growing up. Even if not true, it can still provide positive benefits to them.

I've answered this in a prior post as well. It isn't a matter of what you try to do or believe. It is what you are. What are you doing now? I think you have your answer as to why the Lord does not speak to you.

People usually do what they are. I believed and acted on that belief for many years.

I absolutely do. Otherwise, how can you really know if you aren't deluding yourself?

How do you know you are not deluding yourself? I wonder why the church teaches that seeking God and seeing God will probably not happen at the same time. You would think it is a process that takes time.

They should do what God tells them to do and believe. The point is to start the conversation.

Unfortunately we have to put some of them into jail for doing just that. I just hope your delusions don't tell you to do anything really bad. :)

That has nothing to do with it. If you know God exists, what are you going to debate and justify to yourself? For example, most people know the Sun exists. They don't usually go around all day evaluating that means to them.

Some people were saying that about the sun revolving around the earth. Good thing some people questioned that. Now which God are you talking about. Lots of people think they know their God exists, and their beliefs are correct. Someone has to be wrong and deluding themselves. Maybe we all should ask a few more questions. I doubt God would have a problem with that.

[_Tobin]

As long as you didn't get the same answer that Tobin did, it's obvious that it wasn't God.

Now, who's making rash judgements?

[_SteelHead]

We are just measuring by the same judgment by which you mete...... and you do not like it?

You have stated that any answer that does not coincide with those given to you is not of god.

When we apply that same rational on my statements..... you call it rash.

Inconsistent much?

[_Runtu]

Now, who's making rash judgements?

Sarcasm does not equal a rash judgment.

[_Tobin]

I take it you are not interested in learning anything on this issue. That's fine.

Again, still don't want to answer 'yes' huh? And I think I'm sufficiently aware of the facts in this case.

Could you quote where the church teaches that experiencing God is necessary for one to be Mormon. I must have missed it.

Clearly you did. Let me explain in simple terms, when you are called of God, you feel the way, but when you are chosen you experience God in a very real way that you do not doubt. Paul the apostle experienced this as has many of the saints. Without that, you are simply a believer and easily swayed. As I'm sure, this is the case with you. In Matt 22:14, the Lord states as much - "For many are called, but few are chosen."

How do you know you are not deluding yourself? I wonder why the church teaches that seeking God and seeing God will probably not happen at the same time. You would think it is a process that takes time.

Actually, it has nothing to do with me in fact. I'm the anti/ex-mormon's worst nightmare. Someone that is completely unimpressed by anything you might say that would detract from the fact that there is a God. I'm happy to discuss the topic with them, but I know they are completely mistaken about the existence of God. I'm as sure of that fact as I am there is a Sun.

Some people were saying that about the sun revolving around the earth. Good thing some people questioned that. Now which God are you talking about. Lots of people think they know their God exists, and their beliefs are correct. Someone has to be wrong and deluding themselves. Maybe we all should ask a few more questions. I doubt God would have a problem with that.

You are changing what I said. I stated the Sun existes as does God. Understanding the nature and behavior of the Sun (or God in this case) is perfectectly fine. Doubting the Sun exists and debating that is useless waste of time. The same could be said of those that know God exists.