Tobin wrote:That's non-sense. It isn't implicit at all and not what is being said in the OP. It drew Joseph Smith's interest and that was the trigger that caused him to speak to the Lord about it. The position is simply not that there is a dual meaning in the existing papyri. That is completely ridiculous. They are Egyptian and Joseph Smith's, and those around him, mistaken beliefs about the papyri themselves have nothing to do with what is being stated in the OP.
If it was only a trigger then please explain the many accounts (Cowdery's, Caswell's, Smith's the KEP and so on) where they described in detail what specific areas of the papyri contained. Or at least provide something that backs up a trigger theory other than your say so.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Tobin wrote:That's non-sense. It isn't implicit at all and not what is being said in the OP. It drew Joseph Smith's interest and that was the trigger that caused him to speak to the Lord about it. The position is simply not that there is a dual meaning in the existing papyri. That is completely ridiculous. They are Egyptian and Joseph Smith's, and those around him, mistaken beliefs about the papyri themselves have nothing to do with what is being stated in the OP.
If it was only a trigger then please explain the many accounts (Cowdery's, Caswell's, Smith's the KEP and so on) where they described in detail what specific areas of the papyri contained. Or at least provide something that backs up a trigger theory other than your say so.
Cowdery, Caswell, Smith, and so on had no idea what they were looking at. There is no explanation needed other than that. What was shown to Joseph Smith was the original tale and he thought it applied to the Egyptian papyri in front of him. It did not and he (and the others) possessed no expertise what-so-ever to know that.
You simply don't seem to understand the position I think.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Cowdery, Caswell, Smith, and so on had no idea what they were looking at. There is no explanation needed other than that. What was shown to Joseph Smith was the original tale and he thought it applied to the Egyptian papyri in front of him. It did not and he (and the others) possessed no expertise what-so-ever to know that.
You simply don't seem to understand the position I think.
I see the position, but no evidence for it. Would you also make the same claim about what was on the gold plates? Did J.S. have any idea what he was looking at there also? Assuming they were real for arguments sake.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Tobin wrote:Cowdery, Caswell, Smith, and so on had no idea what they were looking at. There is no explanation needed other than that. What was shown to Joseph Smith was the original tale and he thought it applied to the Egyptian papyri in front of him. It did not and he (and the others) possessed no expertise what-so-ever to know that.
You simply don't seem to understand the position I think.
I see the position, but no evidence for it. Would you also make the same claim about what was on the gold plates? Did J.S. have any idea what he was looking at there also? Assuming they were real for arguments sake.
Yes, Joseph Smith had no idea what he was looking at. He didn't even know where it took place on the continent and embraced numerous ideas.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
I once read a paper on dealing with Cognitive Dissonance and I have to say Tobin's efforts to deal with his prophet's work in remarkable. The new style of apologetics
Hilary Clinton " I won the places that represent two-thirds of America's GDP.I won in places are optimistic diverse, dynamic, moving forward"
aussieguy55 wrote:I once read a paper on dealing with Cognitive Dissonance and I have to say Tobin's efforts to deal with his prophet's work in remarkable. The new style of apologetics
Uh, next you are going to tell me that makes you a clinical psychologist I suppose?
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Yes, Joseph Smith had no idea what he was looking at.
Well on this, at least, we agree.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Tobin your theory requires Joseph to be clueless as to the papyri yet knowledgeable as to the story of Abraham, but clueless as to where that story was coming from. This position is highly untenable. There is no evidence to support it. Why are you arguing it?
Spektical wrote:Tobin your theory requires Joseph to be clueless as to the papyri yet knowledgeable as to the story of Abraham, but clueless as to where that story was coming from. This position is highly untenable. There is no evidence to support it. Why are you arguing it?
Because the fact is Joseph Smith was clueless about the papyri. The assumption he knew Egyptian is unsupportable since no-one of that period understood Egyptian Hieroglyphics. It is also disingenuous of critics of the Book of Abraham to insist that proponents of the text must stand by a supposed knowledge of Egyptian Hieroglyphics that they themselves don't believe he had and frequently point out examples that he did not. It is incredibly inconsistent with how he translated the Book of Mormon too since he didn't know reformed Egyptian either. And as far as the story of Abraham, he got that from God and mistakeningly thought it was in the Egyptian papyri EXACTLY because he was clueless about the papyri. If the story of Abraham is true, this is the only set of facts that could possibly make sense and be consistent with what we know about his other translations and understanding of the texts involved.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom