Gnat Straining and the Apologist

[_Themis]

Do you know for a fact that God did or did not speak with Joseph Smith? Do you know for a fact that God did not reveal the Book of Mormon to Joseph Smith? And so on...

These aren't things in which we are trying to gain further insight into them (seeking wisdom). We are trying to determine if they are true at all. Unless God tells you they are true, there is no reason to believe these claims.

Hello tobin,

1st let me say that it's unfortunate that the discussion has drifted into what satan can and can't do. For what it's worth I don't believe your testimony is the result of satan.
With regards to the 1st paragraph the questins in themselves are irrelevent. They only become significant with respect to whatever actions we take as a result of our views. That said I have formed the opinion that Joseph Smith didn't have any special calling as a prophet and that the Book of Mormon is not historical.
You stated "We are trying to determine if they are true at all". My understanding of your position is that you believe the Book of Mormon etc. because God has told you it was true. I believe you and I don't believe it was really satan.

Drifting,

You sound like you are a part of the church heirarchy when you pester tobin about whether he is a tbm or not. I personally think it's a good thing that he gives his tithing to causes he believes in rather than to the LDS corp.

The satan angle was brought up since if God and satan exist how does he really know which one it was. The church teaches satan can deceive in this way. I suggested other more reasonable scenario but interest in it didn't seem forthcoming(understandable ) From there he brought up that God would correct this(at least probably for him) so I just brought up that he has argued the other way. Opps my bad.

[_Tobin]

Again we see tobin falsely accusing me of lying. This has everything to do with him not understanding what others are saying or asking of him. When I said he didn't provide any evidence it was about evidence of Joseph thinking the papyri was not the source of the Book of Abraham. It is true that he did not. He mistakenly thought I was saying he didn't provide the article in question where ashment or nibley are stating their opinions on no evidence. I think it may also be that he does not understand the nature of what evidence is.

Funny coming from someone that doesn't believe Joseph Smith could translate the papyri either. When Nibley or Ashment (remember they were saying this in 1979!!!) or I state the same thing based on Joseph Smith odd behavior and curious statements, it is merely our opinions even though you already agree with us. Am I lying Themis? Do you think Joseph Smith could actually translate the papyri?

[_Themis]

Again we see tobin falsely accusing me of lying. This has everything to do with him not understanding what others are saying or asking of him. When I said he didn't provide any evidence it was about evidence of Joseph thinking the papyri was not the source of the Book of Abraham. It is true that he did not. He mistakenly thought I was saying he didn't provide the article in question where ashment or nibley are stating their opinions on no evidence. I think it may also be that he does not understand the nature of what evidence is.

Funny coming from someone that doesn't believe Joseph Smith could translate the papyri either. When Nibley or Ashment or I state the same thing, it is merely our opinions even though you already agree with us. Am I lying Themis? Do you think Joseph Smith could actually translate the papyri?

It is opinion. They don't provide any real evidence Joseph viewed at any time the papyri as not being the source of the Book of Abraham. Sure the evidence proves Joseph was making it up and therefore would know it was not the source of the Book of Abraham, but then that is evidence you are not interested in. Your position with this article is that Joseph later was corrected about the papyri but that God had given him the Abraham story. Forgetting all the problems with this it still does not provide evidence that Joseph thought the papyri was not the source of the Book of Abraham while believing he was getting revelation from God.

[_Tobin]

It is opinion. They don't provide any real evidence Joseph viewed at any time the papyri as not being the source of the Book of Abraham. Sure the evidence proves Joseph was making it up and therefore would know it was not the source of the Book of Abraham, but then that is evidence you are not interested in. Your position with this article is that Joseph later was corrected about the papyri but that God had given him the Abraham story. Forgetting all the problems with this it still does not provide evidence that Joseph thought the papyri was not the source of the Book of Abraham while believing he was getting revelation from God.

Of course the Lord corrected Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith is dead Themis. He is probably well aware of his mistakes. It is a question of how much he knew when - and guess what? That is going to be a matter of opinion unless you speak with Joseph Smith and ask him. The question was - is God incapable of correcting us. That is obviously false. The Lord continually corrected Joseph Smith and he does the same with each of us over time.

[_Dcharle]

Not seeking for loop holes. This purely my perspective, after evaluating all the evidence the church is left wanting in the scales of credibility. Their are just far too many issues with nineteenth century Mormonism for it to be credibly considered Gods one and only, surely the Lord can do better.

[_Themis]

Of course the Lord corrected Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith is dead Themis. He is probably well aware of his mistakes.

But this was not issue you were arguing.

It is a question of how much he knew when - and guess what? That is going to be a matter of opinion unless you speak with Joseph Smith and ask him.

Unless of course we have statements made by Joseph that say he viewed papyri as not being the source of the papyri. We have plenty that are claiming he viewed them as the source of the Book of Abraham. So no we wouldn't have to talk to him to find out how he was claiming to view it

The question was - is God incapable of correcting us. That is obviously false. The Lord continually corrected Joseph Smith and he does the same with each of us over time.

And yet you were arguing God was not correcting Joseph on what would be a very important area to correct one. I can't think of anything that would be more important, and since we see only evidence that he claimed the papyri was the source of the Book of Abraham then you are really only left with arguing God wouldn't correct him for some strange reason. Reality is Joseph made it all up, but I do think he may have convinced himself of some things. This is quite common for people to do.

[_Themis]

Not seeking for loop holes. This purely my perspective, after evaluating all the evidence the church is left wanting in the scales of credibility. Their are just far too many issues with nineteenth century Mormonism for it to be credibly considered Gods one and only, surely the Lord can do better.

The problem has always been to much evidence showing that he was making it up. This is why we see so much bad apologia to try and get around all the problems. Surley the Lord would have done much better had he/she/them really been involved.

[_Tobin]

And yet you were arguing God was not correcting Joseph on what would be a very important area to correct one. I can't think of anything that would be more important, and since we see only evidence that he claimed the papyri was the source of the Book of Abraham then you are really only left with arguing God wouldn't correct him for some strange reason. Reality is Joseph made it all up, but I do think he may have convinced himself of some things. This is quite common for people to do.

Again, you are missing the point. Initially Joseph Smith made mistaken statements about the papyri. I'm not arguing about that. Later he made other statements and did things that raised questions about how he understood the contents of the papyri. If Joseph Smith was so sure about what the papyri contained in his initial statements, these later statements and actions are inexplicable as Ashment and Nibley pointed out in 1979 and show his view wasn't as sure as it seems and/or was changing. It isn't something I had to come along twenty years latter in 2012 to notice all by myself.

[_Drifting]

Drifting,

You sound like you are a part of the church heirarchy when you pester tobin about whether he is a tbm or not. I personally think it's a good thing that he gives his tithing to causes he believes in rather than to the LDS corp.

Do you think Tobin is a TBM?

[_Themis]

Again, you are missing the point. Initially Joseph Smith made mistaken statements about the papyri. I'm not arguing about that.

That's the part that you did argue God didn't correct.

Later he made other statements and did things that raised questions about how he understood the contents of the papyri. If Joseph Smith was so sure about what the papyri contained in his initial statements, these later statements and actions are inexplicable as Ashment and Nibley pointed out in 1979 and show his view wasn't as sure as it seems and/or was changing. It isn't something I had to come along twenty years latter in 2012 to notice all by myself.

This is still opinion based on no evidence. Sure it's not hard to see that Joseph didn't understand Egyptian. He was making it up. What we don't see is any evidence that Joseph claimed he didn't know Egyptian, and the numbers thing in the facsimile is not Joseph stating he doesn't understand them. It also doesn't show Joseph thought at any time the papyri was not the source of the Book of Abraham which is something you did state.