Always Singular God Plural Persons

[_Mittens]

Historic Christianity is no easier to defend than any other religion. For starters what is historic Christianity?

Historic Christianity would follow these beliefs as crucial

E. Calvin Beisner
God in Three Persons
The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:
The doctrine of the Trinity----that in the nature of the One True God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each fully God, Coequal and Coeternal

The doctrine of the incarnation----- that the Son of God, the Word ( John 1:1 ) became man ( John ; Rom. 1:3 ) uniting in the single person of the Son two distinct and complete natures, diety and humanity.

The sinless of Christ---- that he lived as the perfect man to fulfill God’s plan for all humanity. ( Heb 2:6-18; 4:14, 15 )

The sacrificial death of Christ---- to atone for sins of all men ( 1 John 2:2; 1 Peter 2:; Matt 20:28; 1 Cor 6:20 )

The resurrection of Christ---- that after his death, Christ rose bodily from the grave, showing his triumph over sin and death, as the first fruit, and hence the promise, of resurrection to all who have faith in him ( 1 ; Rom 6:3-11 )

Salvation by Grace through Faith--- that justification before God, and hence salvation from punishment and life with God, are available only as a gift from God through faith in Jesus Christ ( John 14:6; 3:16 Acts 4:10; John 8:24 ) pp 19-20

When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.
We may condense this into a somewhat shorter statement, one which is more precise: In the nature of the God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( or substance ) of the one true God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit p 24

Substance a synonym for Godhead

Substantia
There were two major Latin words involved. The first is substantia, Although the word was idiomatically to mean “goods” or “property” and in a legal sense to denote “ that to which two or more parties could share legal claim,” there never was never much doubt as to what the Church Fathers intended when using substantia was simply the being of God. Thus to say , with the Latin orthodox theologians, that Father,Son, and Spirit were consubstantialis was to say that they shared the same basic “thing” or “what” that they were: namely, they were God.

Godhead, God, substance Essence and being all synonyms

[_maklelan]

Historic Christianity would follow these beliefs as crucial

E. Calvin Beisner
God in Three Persons
The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:
The doctrine of the Trinity----that in the nature of the One True God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each fully God, Coequal and Coeternal

Evidently, then, "historic Christianity" began around the late-third or early-fourth century CE. There were no historic Christians prior to that time, since that's the first time the Trinity as described above was articulated.

The doctrine of the incarnation----- that the Son of God, the Word ( John 1:1 ) became man ( John ; Rom. 1:3 ) uniting in the single person of the Son two distinct and complete natures, diety and humanity.

The sinless of Christ---- that he lived as the perfect man to fulfill God’s plan for all humanity. ( Heb 2:6-18; 4:14, 15 )

The sacrificial death of Christ---- to atone for sins of all men ( 1 John 2:2; 1 Peter 2:; Matt 20:28; 1 Cor 6:20 )

The resurrection of Christ---- that after his death, Christ rose bodily from the grave, showing his triumph over sin and death, as the first fruit, and hence the promise, of resurrection to all who have faith in him ( 1 ; Rom 6:3-11 )

Salvation by Grace through Faith--- that justification before God, and hence salvation from punishment and life with God, are available only as a gift from God through faith in Jesus Christ ( John 14:6; 3:16 Acts 4:10; John 8:24 ) pp 19-20

Wow, we're backing it up all the way to the Reformation. There was no "historic Christianity" prior to the sixteenth century now. Wow, that's quite a claim.

When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.
We may condense this into a somewhat shorter statement, one which is more precise: In the nature of the God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( or substance ) of the one true God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit p 24

Substance a synonym for Godhead

Substantia
There were two major Latin words involved. The first is substantia, Although the word was idiomatically to mean “goods” or “property” and in a legal sense to denote “ that to which two or more parties could share legal claim,” there never was never much doubt as to what the Church Fathers intended when using substantia was simply the being of God. Thus to say , with the Latin orthodox theologians, that Father,Son, and Spirit were consubstantialis was to say that they shared the same basic “thing” or “what” that they were: namely, they were God.

Godhead, God, substance Essence and being all synonyms

Funny that the ECFs of the second and third century used the Greek "person" and "substance" interchangeably. I guess your notion that substance = essence = being wasn't accepted until around the third century CE. Again, you define the first century or two of Christ's Church right out of "historic Christianity."

[_SteelHead]

Well that is what I have always noted also, that historic or traditional christianity started in the 16th century and so has about 200 years more history than Mormonism.

[_LittleNipper]

So we have to accept the Trinity despite it being illogical, and only because someone says it's biblical?

Is gravity fully understood? Is the atom fully understood? There are plenty of things that are not understood and GOD is even more reasonably misunderstood. He is perfect, eternal, and the Creator of so many thing we do not fully understand. The Bible speaks of the Flood in rather clear terms. I do not fully understand how God brought such a thing about; however, I know it happened and it was global. The Bible provides only scant information. It is enough for the believer to accept this truth. Jesus is God. The Bible clearly says that no other god is to be worshipped. Then the Bible says to worship Jesus as LORD. This is proof enough that the Father and Jesus are eternally connected. Only one God, and the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are that one.

Add to all this the TRUTH that ONLY GOD can forgive sin. And Jesus clearly stated more than once------------------
Mark 2:5 ► ..., " your sins are forgiven."
Jesus can be no one else but GOD in the flesh. Christ is actually the proof GOD exists! Point the atheists to Christ Jesus. This is God.

[_maklelan]

Is gravity fully understood? Is the atom fully understood?

Now you're being even more ridiculous. Nothing is irrational or impossible with either subject. There's a difference between not knowing the specific mechanics of this or that observable physical phenomenon and claiming that Jesus was 100% man and 100% God because you says so.

There are plenty of things that are not understood and GOD is even more likely to be misunderstood. He is perfect, eternal, and the Creator of so many thing we do not fully understand. The Bible speaks of the Flood in rather clear terms.

No, actually it has two different accounts woven together in a rather incomplete way.

I do not fully understand how God brought such a thing about; however, I know it happened and it was global.

No you don't. You believe those things because you have chosen to believe them. You don't know them at all.

The Bible provides only scant information.

And conflicting information.

It is enough for the believer to accept this truth.

Then it should be enough to let Latter-day Saints accept the truths they've chosen to accept.

Jesus is God.

Another faith claim that you cannot back up. Every scripture reference you've copied and pasted from your apologetics website has been shown to be misunderstood and you've not been able to respond at all.

The Bible clearly says that no other god is to be worshipped.

Yes, it does. It also says to chop off your hand and cut out your eye if they are involved in sin.

Then the Bible says to worship Jesus as LORD.

The book of Revelation says that, but it also says that Jesus' disciples will be worshipped.

This is proof enough that the Father and Jesus are eternally connected.

Only if you presuppose that the Bible is univocal, which it demonstrably is not. As I've pointed out, the New Testament quite frequently reinterpreted the Hebrew Bible for its own ideological purposes.

Only one God, and the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are that one.

That's a post-biblical notion, as I've shown over and over here.

[_maklelan]

Add to all this the TRUTH that ONLY GOD can forgive sin.

You mean the "truth" that is only found in the snide remark made by a misguided Pharisee who rejected Jesus? This is now biblical truth? You're willing to wrangle any comment you need to from its context and meaning as long as it helps you to find the Trinity in the New Testament, huh? There are also the numerous texts that state that the Father delivered judgment into Jesus' hands.

And Jesus clearly stated more than once------------------
Mark 2:5 ► ..., " your sins are forgiven."
Jesus can be no one else but GOD in the flesh. Christ is actually the proof GOD exists! Point the atheists to Christ Jesus. This is God.

More faith claims with nothing to back them up. Obviously you have no intention of coming back to any of my concerns and addressing them.

[_Mittens]

Early Mormon founders taught the Trinity

1. Discourses of Brigham Young, p.30
The Holy Ghost, we believe, is one of the characters that form the Trinity, or the Godhead.

1. Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p.61
Now I repeat-the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, he constitutes the third person in the Trinity, the Godhead

1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.312
In our Articles of Faith we declare our belief in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost-in other words, the Trinity. We accept the scriptural doctrine that they are separate and distinct personages. This is one distinguishing and, to some, disturbing doctrine of the Church.

1. James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, Vol.4, p.264
From these statements, and from many others that might be quoted, it is clear that Adam and Christ are two persons-not the same Person. It is erroneous doctrine to consider them one and the same person, for Jesus is the Christ, a member of the Trinity, the God-head, and to whom Adam, the father of the human family upon this earth, is amenable. Adam will have to account for his stewardship to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, whose blood atones for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam.
James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, Vol.6, p.236


1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.313
Surely this was not ventriloquism where Christ was speaking to and of himself. It was the Father introducing His Son. In this case, the members of the Holy Trinity manifested themselves, each in a different way, and each was distinct from the others. A similar event occurred on the Mount of Transfiguration when members of the Godhead were distinguished in the presence of Moses and Elias, and Peter, James, and John.
J. Reuben Clark Jr. Second Counselor to the LDS First Presidency speaking to diversified audience in the mid 1940s speaks of God in terms of the Trinity-God has revealed to us that he is the Father of all, and that he loves and cares forth righteous everywhere, and seeks ever to bring back the wayward to his ways. He has made known that Jesus is the Christ, the Only Begotten of the Father, the Redeemer of the World, the First Fruits of the Resurrection. He has shown to us that as Jesus died, lay in the tomb, and was resurrected, so shall it be with every son and daughter of God. He has manifested to us that he is a person, that Christ is another person, and that the Holy Ghost is a third person, and that these make
the Trinity of the Godhead


Another explanation is found in Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 98-99 under Counsel given by President Charles W. Penrose
Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead, and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." well what is the fulnesspel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, section 76, in the Doctrine and Covanants, and you find there defined what the gospel is, There God the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three persons in the Trinity-the one God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principals, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason:
General Conference Report, April 1922, pp 27-28.

[_LittleNipper]

Add to all this the TRUTH that ONLY GOD can forgive sin.

You mean the "truth" that is only found in the snide remark made by a misguided Pharisee who rejected Jesus? This is now biblical truth? You're willing to wrangle any comment you need to from its context and meaning as long as it helps you to find the Trinity in the New Testament, huh? There are also the numerous texts that state that the Father delivered judgment into Jesus' hands.

And Jesus clearly stated more than once------------------
Mark 2:5 ► ..., " your sins are forgiven."
Jesus can be no one else but GOD in the flesh. Christ is actually the proof GOD exists! Point the atheists to Christ Jesus. This is God.

More faith claims with nothing to back them up. Obviously you have no intention of coming back to any of my concerns and addressing them.

I see that you did not say that anyone can forgive sin. But you really have not presented a rational answer as to why Jesus can forgive sin when only God can forgive sin. I can forgive someone of their act towards me, but I cannot forgive sin in general. As for your concerns, I will deal with your questions as I see worthy until you begin to answer my questions and without attitude.

[_maklelan]

I see that you did not say that anyone can forgive sin.

Which has nothing to do with anything.

But you really have not presented a rational answer as to why Jesus can forgive sin when only God can forgive sin.

No, I pointed out that several scriptures state unequivocally that God has delivered all judgment to Christ.

I can forgive someone of their act towards me, but I cannot forgive sin in general. As for your concerns, I will deal with your questions as I see worthy until you begin to answer my questions and without attitude.

No, you'll try to deal with what you feel capable of dealing with, which up to this point has been virtually nothing. If you don't like my attitude, just prove me wrong. As long as you keep burping up fundamentalist nonsense with a chip on your shoulder, I will be here to show how uninformed your ideologies are.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Nipper, you never answered by question:

If a vampire bites Jesus and drinks his blood, are the vampire's sins forgiven?

Eagerly awaiting your answer!