False Prophet=Joseph Smith=Brigham Young

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_grindael
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Re: False Prophet=Joseph Smith=Brigham Young

Post by _grindael »

maklelan wrote:
grindael wrote:Joseph Smith disagrees with you.


I'm not arguing from a Latter-day Saint perspective.


That's the whole point, isn't it? Now that seems rather foolish to me. Are you arguing from an atheist's perspective? So you believe that Jesus lied?
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_maklelan
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Re: False Prophet=Joseph Smith=Brigham Young

Post by _maklelan »

grindael wrote:That's the whole point, isn't it? Now that seems rather foolish to me. Are you arguing from an atheist's perspective? So you believe that Jesus lied?


I'm not arguing from an atheist perspective either. I'm just arguing from what the evidence shows.
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_grindael
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Re: False Prophet=Joseph Smith=Brigham Young

Post by _grindael »

And the second coming was expected to occur following the destruction of the temple. That second coming would deliver the Christians from the persecution that would effect that destruction. All the accounts explain that all the things he describes (from destruction through to his second coming) would come to pass during the lives of his disciples. There's no way to eisegete one's way out of the simple fact that Jesus prophesied that his second coming would occur during the lives of his disciples.


I've given a very reasonable exegesis of the passages. In fact on the Mormon websites, it declares that all of the prophecies that you mention have been fulfilled.
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_grindael
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Re: False Prophet=Joseph Smith=Brigham Young

Post by _grindael »

maklelan wrote:
grindael wrote:That's the whole point, isn't it? Now that seems rather foolish to me. Are you arguing from an atheist's perspective? So you believe that Jesus lied?


I'm not arguing from an atheist perspective either. I'm just arguing from what the evidence shows.


Sure thing Daniel. Do you believe that Jesus lied? Yes or no please.
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_maklelan
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Re: False Prophet=Joseph Smith=Brigham Young

Post by _maklelan »

grindael wrote:I've given a very reasonable exegesis of the passages.


I disagree that it is reasonable, and I would ask that you explain why we should accept it in light of the fact that Jesus mentions his own second coming among the things that would take place before his disciples' deaths. Additionally, your exegesis is one that I have never seen in my several years of reading New Testament scholarship. When readings are promoted only by amateurs and never by scholars, it is usually for a reason.

grindael wrote:In fact on the Mormon websites, it declares that all of the prophecies that you mention have been fulfilled.


Again, that's not my concern.
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_maklelan
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Re: False Prophet=Joseph Smith=Brigham Young

Post by _maklelan »

grindael wrote:Sure thing Daniel. Do you believe that Jesus lied? Yes or no please.


I have no idea what Jesus did or did not say, but the authors of the gospels have clearly attributed an inaccurate prophecy to him.
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_grindael
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Re: False Prophet=Joseph Smith=Brigham Young

Post by _grindael »

maklelan wrote:
grindael wrote:I've given a very reasonable exegesis of the passages.


I disagree that it is reasonable, and I would ask that you explain why we should accept it in light of the fact that Jesus mentions his own second coming among the things that would take place before his disciples' deaths. Additionally, your exegesis is one that I have never seen in my several years of reading New Testament scholarship. When readings are promoted only by amateurs and never by scholars, it is usually for a reason.

grindael wrote:In fact on the Mormon websites, it declares that all of the prophecies that you mention have been fulfilled.


Again, that's not my concern.


You can disagree that it is reasonable, but a lot of people (billions) agree that it is. And you did not answer my question. Do you believe that Jesus is a liar. You obviously know what Jesus said, you are calling him a liar.
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Re: False Prophet=Joseph Smith=Brigham Young

Post by _grindael »

The ancient city of Tyre does not exist. It has never been rebuilt. It's ruins still stand today. Another city of Tyre was built near those ruins, but the original city, is still in ruins. http://generationword.com/images/alexan ... sea_lg.jpg

"The modern city of Tyre is of modest size and is near the ancient site, though not identical to it. Archaeological photographs of the ancient site show ruins from ancient Tyre scattered over many acres of land. No city has been rebuilt over these ruins, however, in fulfillment of this prophecy." (Dennis and Grudem, “Tyre,” The ESV Study Bible)

"In point of fact, the mainland city of Tyre later was rebuilt and assumed some of its former importance during the Hellenistic period. But as for the island city, it apparently sank below the surface of the Mediterranean…All that remains of it is a series of black reefs offshore from Tyre, which surely could not have been there in the first and second millennia b.c., since they pose such a threat to navigation. The promontory that now juts out from the coastline probably was washed up along the barrier of Alexander’s causeway, but the island itself broke off and sank away when the subsidence took place; and we have no evidence at all that it ever was built up again after Alexander’s terrible act of vengeance. In the light of these data, then, the predictions of chapter 26, improbable though they must have seemed in Ezekiel’s time, were duly fulfilled to the letter—first by Nebuchadnezzar in the sixth century, and then by Alexander in the fourth." (Archer, “Tyre,” Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties)
Last edited by Guest on Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_maklelan
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Re: False Prophet=Joseph Smith=Brigham Young

Post by _maklelan »

grindael wrote:You can disagree that it is reasonable, but a lot of people (billions) agree that it is.


Really? Show me one mainstream academic publication that promotes your reading of Jesus' prophecy as a reference only to the destruction of the temple.

grindael wrote:And you did not answer my question.


Yes I did.

grindael wrote:Do you believe that Jesus is a liar. You obviously know what Jesus said, you are calling him a liar.


Nowhere have I ever suggested that I know what Jesus said. From the very beginning I have stated that it is the reading of the fundamentalist that demands Jesus be understood as a liar. I have never maintained any other position than that the words of the gospels can only confidently be attributed to the author, not to Jesus. Please do not misrepresent me.
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_grindael
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Re: False Prophet=Joseph Smith=Brigham Young

Post by _grindael »

When readings are promoted only by amateurs and never by scholars, it is usually for a reason.


Sigh. Joseph Smith was no scholar. So we should then ignore all of what he says, right? So I guess this argument is over. Seriously though, here is one scholar that agrees with me: http://www.gci.org/prophecy/matt24

Disciples' three questions
The disciples were really asking three questions. First, they wanted to know when "this" would happen. The "this" could be a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, which Jesus had just finished describing as being threatened with destruction. Second, they wanted to know what the "sign" of his coming was, which as we shall see, Jesus finally gave them in 24:30. Third, the disciples also wanted to know when the "end of the age" would occur. This is something Jesus told the disciples they could not know (24:36).


D.A. Carson was born in Montreal, Quebec, Canada, to Thomas Donald McMillan Carson and Elizabeth Margaret (née Maybury), but grew up in Drummondville. He earned his B.S. (1967) in chemistry and mathematics from McGill University, his M.Div. from Central Baptist Seminary (Toronto), and his Ph.D. (1975) in the New Testament from the University of Cambridge. Carson married Joy (née Wheildon) on August 16, 1975.[1]
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Ph.D from Cambridge. Is that good enough for you?
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
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